Is HVO the EV killer?

MrMusician18

HVO or Hydro treated vegetable oil is now becoming available now through the Certa forecourt network so will be available to motorists. Widely considered to be a green fuel, it's manufactured from organic waste streams and has some interesting properties:

It has a higher cetane than derv so burns more cleanly.

It is a drop in replacement for derv with no modifications generally necessary. It can be blended with derv in any ratio.

It has excellent stability, being more stable than derv and traditional bio diesel.

It is however more expensive than derv at the moment.

Widespread use of HVO has the potential to green a huge proportion of the existing transport fleet without much modification to existing infrastructure and it doesn't come with the expense of the limited range of EVs or the brand new infrastructure network they require. So is HVO the answer that policymakers have been looking for? Will it kill the EV?

Hellrazer

Good topic for discussion.

It depends on what way you look at it. If you are a Green party supporter no amount of "combustible" product that reduces carbon dioxide emissions will ever satisfy their want for us all to be on bicycles or driving EVs - they dont want us burning anything even if it is cleaner.

If you are a realist then you have to see that there will always be a place for internal combustion engines and reducing those emissions has to be part of a greener world and in my opinion HVO is a huge step in making cars cleaner - more so than anti-pollution systems built into cars exhaust systems.

Next up will by hydrogen fuel. Not for about 10 years though and I can see HVO and other biofuels as a stop gap before fully Hydrogen vehicles appear and hydrogen fuel stations show up.

The current fad for EVs will wind down over the next few years and we`ll be left with tons of used batteries with no way to dispose of them - another crisis - again all in my opinion. Theres already evidence that EV sales are slowing worldwide due to governments reducing supports for them - a trend I feel is only going to continue. A petrol or diesel variant of the same car is usually cheaper without the grants and I see people buying more of these and if they are thinking green using biofuels to reduce their carbon footprint.

My opinion is that HVO should be excise duty free and sold for what it is - a fuel that reduces CO2 by up to 90%.

Diesel drivers should be given the option to use it and even incentivized to use it with lower prices than diesel currently is.

Home users that currently use diesel to heat their homes should also get it at a reduced rate compared to their current options. We have the Green party who want oil / gas boilers banned by 2025 yet we have an option in HVO that will reduce CO2 by 90%

Have you seen how much it costs to get a heat pump installed? Upwards of 40k is what I was quoted - not a hope.

So hopefully someone in government will see the value in biofuels and act accordingly but it wont be the greens - it will someone more forward thinking.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058318712/is-hvo-the-ev-killer

in short no.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121255922#Comment_121255922

In long? We can't have much of a discussion if you don't expand on your argument.

I'm personally an EV owner, but listening to Certas spokesman on the radio yesterday I couldn't but be impressed. This is an entirely drop in green replacement for road diesel with a 90% carbon saving. It has the potential to transform transport and industry, especially in areas where electrification isn't likely, like trucking or agriculture - if we can make enough of it and to be fair that is probably the rub. Can enough be made without diverting land for food.

HVO comes with all the benefits of diesel, such as lighter cheaper vehicles, fast fuelling and long range without the emission drawbacks. Not to mention the greening of the existing fleet. One would have to think it will play a major role, especially coming up to 2030 when electrification targets aren't within an asses roar of being met.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121255978#Comment_121255978

This was discussed in another thread, can't find the link now

In short, HVO and other biofuels are mostly a scam. They don't scale in a cost effective manner and eventually you run out of waste to use, so you either accept a limited level of production or start producing crops for fuel

I read an SEAI study on all biofuels potential in Ireland (including biomass and biogas) and the most optimistic scenario was they could meet 10% of Ireland's electricity demand or 30% of heating

They didn't mention transport but there would be a significant shortfall in available production

If we end up importing biofuels then what's the point?

I don't personally have anything against biofuels produced from waste, but it would be pretty silly to start wasting available land for fuel crops

the_amazing_raisin

Here's the SEAI study for anyone interested

https://www.seai.ie/publications/Bioenergy-Supply-in-Ireland-2015-2035-Summary-Report.pdf

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121255978#Comment_121255978

Funny you mention the 2030 electrification target. In 5 years (2018 to now) we've gone from a 7% market share to 47% market share of cars that would still be allowed to be sold as new under the 2030 "ban". I don't see any particular difficulty in the market moving to 100% electrified sales by 2030.

Water John

HVO should be targeted to the commercial goods fleet not cars.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121256262#Comment_121256262

The SEAI study states that liquid biofuel production wouldn't be viable without high prices and states that it needs to exceed €24/GJ. The forecourt price of diesel is currently running at about €52/GJ.

I don't think it's fair to be dismissive. I do think we will start to see land here being diverted more and more to fuel crops.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121256432#Comment_121256432

I suspect they also assumed electricity prices would stay where they were when the paper was published, which they haven't to put it mildly

JohnC.

"I do think we will start to see land here being diverted more and more to fuel crops."

This is not a good thing, btw.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121256319#Comment_121256319

The target is 30% of fleet to be EVs by 2030 though. That target will not be met.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121255978#Comment_121255978

And soot?

Water John

Don't know the particulate matter of HVO. They're are proposals for a lot of Anerobic Digestion plants to plug into the gas grid. These too need feedstock that comes from the land. Another group wants trees on it. A more extreme group want to rewild the land completely. The field can only do so many jobs and they're not making any more of it.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121256635#Comment_121256635

HVO is less sooty than derv as it has a higher cetane value

mikeecho

There is a place on the road for both.

I'll be sticking with HVO100, been using it almost exclusively for a few months.

No noticable downside, other than it's a few cent more expensive, but recently it's been the same or less than diesel.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121257033#Comment_121257033

Certa are price matching with diesel for the time being but I understand that it's natural price is 10-15% more than derv

Water John

Probably better for the health of the occupants, an aspect to be considered.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121257097#Comment_121257097

Than an EV?

Water John

Ah diesel. Two Ev's in the family.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121257089#Comment_121257089

That's a pretty massive red flag by itself, and it's worth remembering that restaurants and takeaways pay to have their used oil removed. What happens when they start demanding it gets taken for free, or they want a cut of the profits?

quokula

So I wasn't too familiar with this and did some reading. It seems the reason the emissions are rated so low is that the crops absorb CO2 when grown, then that CO2 is released at the tailpipe but isn't counted because it is simply releasing what was previously absorbed (though there is some more CO2 on top which is measured, as the fuel is blended). This does make sense in classifying it as largely renewable.

But what if the land was just used to grow food crops that also absorb CO2 but aren't then burned to run vehicles, that would be even better. There are still some unanswered questions about other particulates released as there haven't been enough studies done, and it does nothing for local air quality or noise pollution in towns and cities in the way EVs do.

On the whole however it certainly does seem like a massive jump forward from diesel, albeit at some cost, and it looks like it has a place in helping the transition to cleaner driving.

Hard to see it replacing EVs though given the amount of momentum the shift to electric has right now. As an EV owner I think there isn't enough appreciation of how superior they actually are as cars even if you ignore the environmental case. Silent running, smooth, responsive, usually more space for size of car, always fully charged every morning so no need to queue up at busy petrol stations, much cheaper to run, more reliable, cheaper to service etc

BorneTobyWilde

Are the fumes as cancerous

mikeecho

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121259059#Comment_121259059

Yeah.. very.. you don't want to be around a li-ion fire.

Casati

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121256319#Comment_121256319

Don't think they will allow petrol or diesel powered cars without a plug in 2030 or 2035 - hybrids without a plug are not electrified sales, they are 100% petrol or diesel powered cars, and often consume more fuel than many diesels today.

Yes volume is up massively but its 27% of passenger cars are ev/ phev's. Its important to note that practically no trucks, tractors are EV's currently too and its really these that the HVO is targeted at

mikeecho

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121258129#Comment_121258129

What's a red flag ?

Selling a product at a price to entice customers?

On your other point about restaurants refusing to pay for waste oil disposal.. yeah, they could do that, but they would be stuck with a lot of waste oil , waste oil that they are legally obligated to dispose of in a safe manner.

Having a couple of ibcs in the back yard filled with dirty oil.. what happens when they're full.. keep buying ibcs, and keep filling them

Nope.. they have to provide evidence of safe disposal.

Greengrass53

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121255902#Comment_121255902

You should be in charge. Everything would be fine then, I'm sure, cos you seem to be omniscient. (in your own little world, this is). 😉

Greengrass53

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121258326#Comment_121258326

Spot on

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121260160#Comment_121260160

Under the original extremely soft definition hybrids are classed as electrified. It's one of the reasons the target was such an easy headline grab whilst not really promising much at all.

BorneTobyWilde

It's okay, it's okay, it's running on HVO, a crop growing in the middle of nowhere 2 years ago, absorbed this CO2 👍️👍️👍️

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121260201#Comment_121260201

It's a red flag because they're selling it at a loss. Generally speaking you can't do that long term

I see your point regarding disposal, but what I'm trying to get across is that if your business model depends on being paid by your suppliers and customers then it's a bit shaky to start with

A disruption on one end would have a knock on effect to the other

Anyway, if it isn't cost competitive with diesel then it certainly isn't going to be able to compete with electricity

Considering Mercedes and Volvo are rolling out heavy duty trucks that can carry the same as a diesel truck and travel 500km without a recharge, then it's pretty easy to see where the world is going

Biofuels will have their place, but it'll be in niche markets like remote power generation or maybe farm and plant equipment