Outside blocks

K.G.

With nitrates squeezing people may ditch drystock or rent outside land to comply I said i d put up a discussion on the pros and cons of different strategies with outside blocks .suggested options.

2 cut Silage with grazing with heifers spring autumn

3/4cut silage no grazing

Heifer rearing

Silage and zero grazing

Zero grazing

Maize

Wholecrop cereal s

Beet

Red clover

Typically new rented blocks need reseeding and maybe you could use out wintering with crops and bales

Mooooo

Heifers and silage here, outwintering this year but prob won't do it next year. One pit cut early if possible and then bales to try and have a bit of constant after grass in rotation for youngstock and match them as their intakes increase. Time traveling back and forth, fencing etc all added costs as well.

Beggars can't be choosers but finding dry ground makes a massive difference. When part of the ground is only for for summer grazing wasn't much grazing in that section this summer.

To stay under 220 is fine, but if we had to do it to go back to 170 the economics wouldn't stand up

alps

Could anyone break down the cost of growing a crop of maize? Just the different components..plough, till, sow, seed, fert req and cost.

Up to now it was an easier sum just to buy standing crop or harested in the pit, but nitrates will change that computation.

Contractor selling you zero vat product may make self growing unviable..

K.G.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121211899#Comment_121211899

Would be.the.most common way of using outside blocks but can be a.pain to keep fence right on silage ground as ditches grow out and fence might be only needed twice in the year.the other issue that's come to fore for derogation farmers is water.often theses blocks relied on streams for water but that's not possible.anymore

Mooooo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121212762#Comment_121212762

Agree can be other issues like that as well. If lease can be gotten over a long enough term, water etc could be teased out with landowner.

Re growing crops I guess one thing that may come in that sides favour would be when clover is in most paddocks, extra feed may be required for the shoulders or spring when the clover isn't going. We were told the equivalent of a bale a cow would want to be there to counter for clovers late start, over and above normal requirements.

Used to buy maize at around the 950 to 1k an acre into the pit but that was 5 yr ago, dunno what it's running at now to grow or buy

Jack98

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121213141#Comment_121213141

We haven’t made maize here in 5/6 years used to make it on an outblock and into the yard it was standing us the best past part of a thousand an acre. Farming across 6 blocks here buffering cows with brewers grain last few years and getting on well with it. Zero graze the silage ground 4 miles away in the back end instead of going for a third cut and works out fairly well and allows us to keep the cow numbers up on the milking platform. 2 blocks are used for grazing specifically for heifers and beef cattle and the other 2 blocks are used for bales and grazing of cattle also. Good infrastructure is essential on the outblocks for managing of cattle you’re long enough on the road not to be messing when you get there. All waterways are fenced off with years because of derogation also.

K.G.

Which would you think is a better feed dry 3 Rd cut or wet zero grazing. This year is very tough to zerograze

Jack98

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121213593#Comment_121213593

Prefer the zero grazing here anyway solids doing better than silage anyway I reckon and not much of a hit to volume like you’d experience with silage sometimes when it’s introduced it holds cows well too the zero grazing.

Siamsa Sessions

Saw this on Twitter and thought of this thread: "Effects of grazing platform stocking rate on productivity and profitability of pasture-based dairying in a fragmented farm scenario"

Abstract:

The area adjacent to the milking parlor, accessible for grazing by lactating dairy cows (i.e., the grazing platform [GP]), can be limited on fragmented pasture-based dairy farms. Such farms, with a moderate overall farm stocking rate, typically have a much higher stocking rate of dairy cows on the grazing platform This study quantified the effects of farm fragmentation on milk and herbage production and profitability in a whole-farm systems-scale study over 3 years (2017–2019).

Four systems, each with an overall farm stocking rate of 2.5 cows/ha but with different grazing platform stocking rates (GPSR), were examined. The proportions of the overall farm area within the GP were 100%, 83%, 71%, and 63% in each of the 4 systems, respectively. Hence, the 4 systems had GPSR of 2.5, 3.0, 3.5, and 4.0 cows/ha. The GP was used for grazing and silage (ensiled herbage) production, and the non-GP portion of each GPSR system was used solely for silage production. Concentrate supplementation per cow was the same across all GPSR systems; approximately 10% of the annual feed budget. All systems were compact spring-calving with 24 cows per system.

We discovered a lower proportion of grazed herbage in the diet with higher GPSR. All silage produced on the non-GP areas was required to support higher GPSR on each of the systems. Annual herbage production and milk production per cow were not different between GPSR systems, resulting in similar milk production per hectare of the overall system area. The economic implications of different GPSR on fragmented farms were modeled in 2 scenarios: (1) quantifying the cost associated with different levels of farm area fragmentation; (2) investigating the optimum GPSR on pasture-based dairy farms, depending on variable criteria.

A greater level of farm fragmentation lowered the profitability of pasture-based dairy production. Costs of production increased with higher GPSR and longer distances between GP and non-GP areas. At a fixed GP area, it was most profitable to increase GPSR up to 4 cows/ha on the GP when milk price was high, land rental price was low, and shorter distance existed between GP and non-GP areas.

Full paper here: https://www.journalofdairyscience.org/article/S0022-0302(23)00506-4/fulltext

K.G.

It's was a tough season on zero grazing, maize and while the beet has barely started the ground would have to come a long way to make it easier.just a thought after this year is double cropping wholecrop an option.its just that alot of crops didn't get in the ground this year until mid May or after and seemed to do OK despite the drought that came after.it would have a number of advantages you re not sowing crops in the busy spring period.you d be less reliant on imported feed .it could utilise slurry.i accept contractors might like to put on the whole crop header the first week in June and that the "Spring crops mightnt be fantastic. Also throw in it might only be an option down south. Daft idea i suppose but it does mitigate some of the weather risk

GrasstoMilk

Strongly considering purchasing a zero grazer here

needed extra ground with nitrates changes and it’s not near enough to walk cows too but it is near enough to zero graze

stocked high as is and would have to go back a long way in cow numbers if we didn’t take this ground

fed a good bit silage /maize /whole crop this year to keep grass on the grazing block. It works but I would prefer if it was grass which has me leaning towards zero grazing

I could take back my heifers off the contract rearer but I need to build a shed for them plus fence and water this ground aswell as needing a crush and still having to be there every day checking/ moving them at the very least

I would still be feeding extra meal and silage at home with the above option

have talked to quite a few ppl in the last few weeks who are zero grazing to supplement a high SR and utilise ground near by and they’re all happy with it but they did stress it took up time which is the biggest downside

but saying all that I think there’s enough positives in it for me to give it a try for a year and see if I like it /suits us

straight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121354903#Comment_121354903

Talk about being in a hole and continuing to dig...

GrasstoMilk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121354961#Comment_121354961

Go way at feck

you know nothing about me or my farm bar what I post here.

just because you don’t agree with running a higher stocking rate doesn’t mean I don’t

K.G.

Anybody on hire with one near you.more and more decisions coming down to labour here and it seems to be easier to make silage than zero grazing.

cute geoge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121354988#Comment_121354988

I taught you had your own baler ,surely making wilted quality bales is a better option then drawing watery grass in the shoulders as well as most of the summer this year anyway ,Will you be at zero grazing nearly every day where as the bales will be done over a couple of days evry 7/8 weeks

straight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121354988#Comment_121354988

Only answers that suit is what you want is it. I just quickly read your comment but it sound like you are building sheds, investing in more machinery, taking on a bigger workload with an aging father and all based on renting ground. Sure what could go wrong. Talk about risk and hardship for the sake of extra cows with no extra profit. Just my 2 cent like. Hope I didn't hurt anyone's feelings or anything....

GrasstoMilk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121355040#Comment_121355040

feeding really good bales made the first week of may plus maize and soya and 3 kg of a good nut in the parlour atm and the cows went up 1.5 litres on last nights collection when they got grazed grass back in the diet the last few days

GrasstoMilk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121355053#Comment_121355053

Unlike yourself straight I wasn’t in the position to get a job for 10 years and build a house through it and arrive home then to a debt free farm

we all have different circumstances. My father isn’t killed with work.

He does as much or as little as he wants.

I will do what I think suits my farm best and you do what you think suits your farm best

but going back in cow numbers is not on the top of the list of what my options are.

Siamsa Sessions

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121354903#Comment_121354903

I'm sure you've done the maths on buy-versus-rent but I see a few around me get a contractor to do their zero-grazing.

straight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121355094#Comment_121355094

Debt free farm 😂😂😂

GrasstoMilk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121355284#Comment_121355284

See what I mean

you thought you knew enough about me to comment with a snarky view just like I thought I knew enough about you and your farm

straight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121355316#Comment_121355316

I'm not so delicate. I couldn't care less what you do. Just saying what I see. Take a stand back from the whole thing and look at your system or get some outside advice. Maybe you will have as much profit out of less cows and an easier life. That is all.

jaymla627

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121354903#Comment_121354903

Have a really good contractor here that was bringing in a load a grass all summer basically, it works grand and once you keep on a 20 day round, cows milk we'll off it, but Jesus it takes up some time out of your day, even having to put it in with loader then having to shove it in the second-time, if going in-house it will put a hour to a hour and a half daily on your routinebetween cutting and shoving it in...

I'd be very weary of a second-hand zero grazer too, contractor has a feed-all one on her 4 th season and she's giving a nice bit of trouble with wear and tear, he was going changing it but a new like for like machine is north of 75k now,

GrasstoMilk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121355392#Comment_121355392

I have stood well back from it and looked at the whole thing

I’ve asked myself plenty of questions

this to me seems the best option. I could potentially cut back meal and get back under a tonne fed and hold the milk output

the big downside is the time it will take but comparing it the other options of cutting numbers or cutting a lot of silage and feeding it back when our cows are really geared towards grass it seems the best option

we’re making v good money here and heading towards a company to sort tax liabilities. Paying more and more every year despite the depreciation we have

GrasstoMilk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121355426#Comment_121355426

Thanks jay

have looked at a fullly refurbed grasstech one . Nothing near that price but have heard mixed reports on that brand so not sure yet on what we’ll do tbh

coukd be paying someone to zero graze fir the first while before I commit

jaymla627

It's probably a runner in your case, the load of zero-grazed grass was saving us approximately 3.5-4ton of buffer feed a day in the summer/early autumn, cows still where getting circa 2 ton of silage/maize a day but it would be up on 5-6 ton depending on weather when the zero-grazed grass wasn't going in, milk yields held up the same as any other year

Bangoverthebar

I bought a used ab70 zero grazer last yr for small money. Very simple machine, a bit of oil and away you go.

Contractor looking at €100 a load here. I couldnt make that work, plus the inconsistency of working around contractors time.

I try only cut dry grass, if grass is wet i bring small loads. Its a useful tool to keep cows feed.

Its like some lads have a diet feeder and are into feeding brewers, maize, extra meal etc.

Im into grass, grazed, zero grazed and silage.

older by the day

There was an article a while ago about a fellow he ran a front mower and behind was a pick up wagon . At least you could use the two machines separately. I wonder is that a bit heavy if the ground is soft.

awaywithyou

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121354903#Comment_121354903

ah as i can see you more or less have your mind made up on going zero grazing.... would cutting cow numbers be such a bad thing?? think you said ye were milking 170?? how far back would you have to go for nitrates?? how big is your single payment?? could u do without it....?

i say this as a heap of lads around me are zero grazing.... and all they are doing is going around in circles... tho 1 guy did buy a new tractor last yr... he was sick of having to take off zero grazer after bringing in grass to put on slurry tank to draw out slurry so he bought a tractor for slurry tank now he just has to hop from one tractor to the next and no more taking off or putting tank or grazer... so i suppose thats progress...

hes doing the zero grazing off rented ground which he has with 10yrs... super job done with land... i mean super.. top class farm by him now... unfortunately the owner has got a notion and wants to go farming (big surprise to all of us) so hes going to be without a portion of it next yr...

do it for a yr and see how u get on... but long term i dont think its the solution to your issues...

GrasstoMilk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121356618#Comment_121356618

I wouldn’t say my mind is 100% made up

I’m questioning it strongly but it has a lot of pros to it for me

were making good money with the numbers we’re at but I want to get back to a more grass based system without cutting cow numbers.

have talked to 6 different lads the last few weeks that are doing it and they’re all happy with it bad the taking up extra time part of it

I also have a bunch of incalf heifers that you couldn’t give away and they’ve great figures - in my opinion any way

Pinsnbushings

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121356767#Comment_121356767

I'll take em for free if your looking to give em away😄 a few more empty than is like

K.G.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121356441#Comment_121356441

We can do that.wagon will hold almost 2 zeros of grass but you have to be aware of grass fresh weight.we tend to mow headlands into a triple swath and front mower the middle as you loose a bit on the corners with the front mower.it wouldn't work as well as a zero grazer in poor conditions but we tend to zero when conditions are suited and not when they are poor. We might almost fully feed the cows with zero for a few days rather than thinking in terms little bit every day

Mooooo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121355665#Comment_121355665

Best bet is prob do the numbers on it first. Be sure to put in a figure for your own time as well as machinery purchase / running costs.

Have a neighbour who used to zerograze a lot, went thru a couple of machines at it and is a machinery man but they have job gone to nearly all bales bar a bit of zerograzing at the shoulders. The zerograzing just took too much time out of the day whereas at least with the silage it was made and could be fed out whenever. Obv a bit of work in drawing it back etc but like that it wasn't every day.

Trial a bit with a contractor, maybe even time the loads etc and see how it goes. If it works out only for the shoulders of the year may as well get contractor at it if they can as spring will be busy anyway and it will reduce housed workload at year end. That 2 hours could be with the family, social side, etc as opposed to other jobs too.

Same money one would cost could be put into the yard as well if need be? That tends to be the case here anyway always something more pressing to be sorted.

mahoney_j

Plough and power harrow. 120/acre

sowing 90/acre

seed/spray/plastic(new bio degradable) 490/acre

harvesting 170/acre

feetliser /slurry. 7 k slurry over 2 splits …..2 bags 0 7 30 2 bags urea

contractor cost 15 euro per acre for chemical

70 euro per hour for shoe/trail slurry (cost per acre worked out at 75

chemicsl fertiliser depends on when you bought it

mahoney_j

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121213593#Comment_121213593

Z grazing wet grass has frig all feeding ….good quality silage trumps it

mahoney_j

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121354903#Comment_121354903

Whatever you do don’t buy a z grazer ….aim for multi cut silage and maize /wholecrop instead ….wet soft grass ain’t good feeding and leads to a lot of compaction

mahoney_j

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121355094#Comment_121355094

Why not ….straight making very legitimate point …cutting back few cows and simplifying things isn’t defeat ….saw it here when my dad had to step back his workload and the shiny ambitions I had changed for the better when I stopped trying to follow all the poster boys in the journal etc …far more to life than cows

jaymla627

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121357558#Comment_121357558

Would agree re heavy covers 2000 plus, but fresh 20 day round 1400 ha/dm grass zero-grazed in cows prefrom really well on even when wet, you obviously need a 2-4kgdm of a fibre source going in to counter-act stomach issues

What I was most impressed with was when I started going with fairly pokey slurry spread with the moschia their was no rejection of the zero-grazed grass on a 20 day round, when you do the sums say your bring in 2 ton of d.m a load contractor 85 euro a load / 60 euro slurry and fert and 40 euro for the time spent putting it in, your taking 85-95 euro per ton of d.m, a silage/whole-crop/maize mix will be costing you over 200 per ton of dm

mahoney_j

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121357709#Comment_121357709

It’s the complication and extea balancing and work z grazing brings puts me off …then throw in soil compaction and heavy rake off of nutrients …..I’ve 16 acres of red clover I’d planned to z graze ….ground too wet and even if I waited for ground to dry out I’d still do damage ….sheep going to clean it now

most dairy lads z graze in spring and back end bringing in wet low dm grass …hard on cows feet and unless balancing that with fibre it’s strip condition off cows ….I’ve found good quality bales at back end leaves cows far more content

GrasstoMilk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121357582#Comment_121357582

I’ve no need to cut back cow numbers. I have the land. I’m making money and I have a good young guy milking and doing odd days here and there when I need him. I’m better set up now than I’ve ever been with less cows

im finished till the afternoon since 10 am and dad wasn’t out with me at all this morning.

my idea is to get back to a more grass based system. I know it will bring extra work load but i think I’ll be okay with that.

ive talked to numerous lads now. 2 have cows in full time and they have no issue with bringing in wet grass

K.G.

Just to give a bit of framework to the debate we ll use as an example a farmer milking 100 cows and a 20block near him has come available .his heifers and silage is already sorted and his cows throw 5000 litres a year.he s debating buying a zero grazer and milking an extra 20 cows.

The extra 20 cows will generate 100k litres which we ll say 36 k euro.

My stab at it is roughly 180 loads off the 20 acres over the year which would be @ 80 euro a load 13.5k

Rent 7.5 k

Fert 3 k

Reseeding/lime 1.5 k 1 year

Slurry spreading we ll say 100 loads over the year at 75 hr is 3.5 k roughly so that's costs I make it of 29 k so you have a gm of 7 k on those 20 cows.the next question what would be the capital costs of those 20 cows.feel free to disect the figure's

mahoney_j

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121357774#Comment_121357774

You obviously have a well functioning ship purring along nicely …..z grazing is def not something I’d be going into any way lightly …the workload will be more than you think then tgeres the running costs beteween the z grazing itself and slurry and despite what u think z grazing will bring complications to cows through feet issues and balancing things up with extra fibre which u will need if u remember roger barkley ran a z grazing system and within 2 years he moved away from it back to multi cut silage etc and got far better results

ive a neighbour with his own z grazer cutting 3 loads min most days you’d be dizzy looking at him on road with grazer ,slurry tank and feet spreader….

jaymla627

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121357899#Comment_121357899

He also went robots and pulled the pin on working their altogether as his workload got out of hand altogether then...

Was madness with the type of cow he had breed trying to get so much dm intake from zero-grazing in the 1st place....

Fully agree you would almost need half a labour unit extra to run the zero-grazer and all the fert/slurrying that it entails, utter madness for a one man band

1848

Do a profit monitor on your current operation to see how efficient you are before considering taking on extra land etc.

GrasstoMilk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121357899#Comment_121357899

Definitely accept it will take up time but I really feel it will suit our cows. We’ve a nice sized cow that’s bred for %s and can do over 6500 l

with the extra silage the last few years out protein has dropped from a yearly av in 21 of 3.86 to bring 3.76 this year. Even though we’re making really good silage. We took 4 cuts of silage off one block this year

tbf I don’t think roger was profit driven. He had it in his head how it was going to work and that was it. And the end of it roger was given one year to get the place profitable and he couldn’t do it

the tillage operation on the farm was making as much money as the cow side. That tells you all you need to know about how it was there

mahoney_j

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121358121#Comment_121358121

I’d bet your kgms sold is gone up tho as have ypur litres ….ypur also stocked higher now and buffer more often through year ….this year was just a pig so wouldn’t base much on if

jaymla627

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121358121#Comment_121358121

What way is that place now, what system are they trying to do,you wouldn't hear alot about it, since he left...

awaywithyou

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121358121#Comment_121358121

is that story about Roger true??

your protein has dropped as the cows arent getting enuf energy....

GrasstoMilk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121359153#Comment_121359153

Yes. it’s fairly common knowledge. Don’t want to be running someone down but that’s what happened

Cappaquinn estate brought in a few advisers to see what they were going to do.

They’d have been broke if they had to pay for any land etc

yeah you could be right about the lack of energy. But any time they were short grass we were feeding really good bales of proper silage- wouldn’t all have been surplus paddock bales

gone from 800 kgs to 1.3t meal also so I wasn’t pinching them

they have gone up in milk solids- will do somewhere near 580 this year but if I could have herd the protein those kgs would be worth more

mahoney_j

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121359221#Comment_121359221

Dilution effect ….still excellent % and nothing shabby about 580 kgms …..

heard different reasons aa to why roger left ….would the estate of backed him with the huge investement in robots if they didn’t see it as a sound investement ….maby roger didn’t feel valued …..he put huge hours in there over and above his pay packet …..know little about place now or what’s going on but very much doubt they would of got someone with the knowledge or want to make that system work

Anto_Meath

I know nothing about dairy cows or milking them. But I have heard a theory lately than feeding zero grazed grass to cows actually increases the risk of TB. Seemingly if an infected badger pisses on a section of grass this then gets mixed with a load of grass and is eaten by a number of cows. Thus increasing the risk of the disease spreading to more animals. I know 1 dairy farmer who is fully zero grazing who has had a number of TB out breaks in recent years and each of them have involved large numbers of cows going done on each test.