Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123512840#Comment_123512840

People are sick to death of their lies. Lies that either deflect from or justify the murder of innocent civilians either by use of weapons or the denial of water, food and medical aid.

Many are also comparing what Israel is doing to events of 80 years ago where civilians were deprived of essential aid and put into concentration camps.

And the world is utterly disgusted.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123512863#Comment_123512863

Indeed, there are ugly echoes of German concentration camps and forced marches (not so much the extermination camps like Auschwitz, but camps like Bergen-Belsen in Germany itself). Shooting people who are starving is a despicable look.

dmcdona

I didn't see this coming but it's not surprising. And it's highly likely this will be an ongoing tactic.

All aid centres will be closed for a day.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cnv18gp4rdzo

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123512935#Comment_123512935

Given Israel knocked out all electricity and communications in 2023, how can they be sure these new proclamations will be received by the starving population? I suspect the brave IDF will be murdering indiscriminately again tomorrow. It's unfathomable that they are closing aid stations after the disastrous start.

Miniegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123512691#Comment_123512691

This is yet another example of disinformation.

Did you bother checking what that lady said yourself before making that post?

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123510957#Comment_123510957

Why do supporters of Israel always have to resort to lies.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123512645#Comment_123512645

There's a special place in hell reserved for people like David Mencer. He's the perfect representation of a lying piece of shite.

Just disgusting on every level.

dmcdona

This is a lengthy debate but well worth a listen if you can find the time.

The lawyer and journalist were very measured. The Palestinian was also measured though wouldn't answer some questions.

There are two Israelis on the panel. Kleiner of Likud and Daniel Levy, former advisor. The polarisation of Israeli society is perfectly demonstrated by these two tearing strips of each other.

Kleiner also tore strips off the Palestinian, the lawyer and the journalist. No surprise there.

In fairness, Levy was very measured until Kleiner kicked off.

Kleiner, exactly like David Mencer, perfectly demonstrates the Hasbara and Israeli propaganda and lies. Deflect, lie, obfusticate, justify - anything but tell the truth.

Of note, the lawyer was very clear - the ICC had been investigating Israel for war crimes before Oct 7th and she also made it clear that signatories to the Geneva conventions are legally obliged to prevent Genocide - hence the SA case put to the ICJ. She also stated that the ICJ provisional measures to avoid Genocide have been ignored by Israel.

https://www.bbc.com/news/videos/c365rkj2wr7o

Bishop of hope

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123513159#Comment_123513159

I haven't time this morning, but it's just another pointless debate with you're wrong, we're right I'd reckon.

I think few would argue against that Israel are criminally responsible for the state of Gaza and its people right now, and the conditions created are genocidal indeed.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123513195#Comment_123513195

Fair enough but I wouldn't dismiss any debate with subject matter experts giving their views and opinions on the basis of "it's probably pointless".

It is a good debate that informs. ''Tis a bit long though.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123513062#Comment_123513062

Indeed - Mercer and his ilk deserve to spend eternity in Dante's ninth circle of hell - treachery.

blue note

I watched it. It kind of is pointless unfortunately. I watched David mencer in interviews yesterday too. There's no engagement from Israeli representatives in those interviews / debates. They talk but what they say bears no relation to what was said before them. Regardless of what is asked or said, the response is that they're the most moral army in living memory, all they're trying to do is get their hostages back, they investigate any wrong doings and hold themselves accountable, they're facing an existential threat, etc.

you could actually cut pretty much any interview with an Israeli representative, be it David mencer, mark regev, eylon levy, Dana Ulrich, or whoever into any of these debates or interviews and they would be the same.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123513311#Comment_123513311

Yeah it's quite disgusting. Imagine that was your job...ignoring direct questions and just parroting out the same nonsense that you were coached to say, day after day after day. How could you sleep at night? No honour whatsoever. It must take a very special level of coldness too. Everyone sees right through it now.

taratee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123510849#Comment_123510849

Thanks for the thoughtful response. Let me address your points clearly.

First, I’m not conflating all pro-Palestinian voices with Hamas supporters. If that came across, I’ll clarify: I’m referring to a segment of activism, particularly in the West, where Hamas’s actions are downplayed, ignored, or re-framed as legitimate resistance, often without any acknowledgment of the October 7th atrocities or Hamas’s long track record of oppression within Gaza, or the fact that they are a terrorist organisation. When I speak of people "minimising" Hamas’s role, I’m referring to that pattern, not to anyone who advocates for Palestinian rights or criticises Israel in good faith.

On the charge of projection, I don’t think that holds. I’ve openly acknowledged my support for Israel’s right to self-defense, but I’ve also said that Israeli actions, particularly regarding humanitarian access and proportionality, deserve scrutiny by professional, independent observers qualified to assess them. I don’t ignore criticism of the Israeli government, people are free to do so. What I push back against is asymmetry: when Hamas’s deliberate targeting of civilians is excused or contextualised, while every Israeli action, even those taken in the context of fighting a terrorist group embedded in civilian infrastructure, is reflexively framed as a war crime or genocide.

You’re right that a state does not have the right to commit war crimes or engage in collective punishment. I agree completely. Deliberately withholding aid or targeting civilians should be condemned. The challenge, though, is in establishing intent, and in distinguishing between the tragic consequences of urban warfare and deliberate policy choices. That’s precisely why investigations exist, and I support them. I’ll accept the findings of those who are trained to conduct them. What I won’t accept are definitive judgments made by internet posters or politicians who are simply toeing the party line. This isn’t about denying accountability, it’s about demanding that accountability be grounded in credible, objective evidence.

Ultimately, moral credibility requires consistency. If someone can’t condemn Hamas’s atrocities with the same energy they use to criticise Israeli policy, then yes, I’ll call that out as one-sided, because it is.

My position is simple: Israel has a right to exist and defend itself. Palestinians have a right to dignity, self-determination, and safety. Both peoples have been failed by leadership, ideology, and cynical geopolitics. If we can’t talk about both sides with nuance and moral clarity, we’re not helping anyone, least of all the civilians trapped in this endless cycle.

Sudden Valley

Definitely would agree that there are failures on both sides .I wouldn't just put the blame on leaders in both societies, the people have allowed them to reach those positions. The leaders policies will not lead to peace but the Palestinian public and Israeli voters still support them. Need a wholesale change to the mindset of the people's there.

taratee

Removed. Can't delete.

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123513690#Comment_123513690

Whilst there's a lot more balance to this post, I'd still argue the following:

1. Condemning Hamas with the same energy as Israel assumes there is equivalency in their actions for the last 600+ days of this conflict. For the few days of this conflict, that would be valid. But for 600 days, the actions of Israel have been massively disproportionate to anything that Hamas did. That absolutely does not mean Hamas should be not be condemned. They have been many times in this thread. But the condemnation follows the actions of the condemnable. Israel is the only aggressor currently engaged in condemnable behaviour. That you see that as some kind of "asymmetry" is mistaken. Hamas committed atrocities on day 1 of this conflict. Israel has committed atrocities on each of the 600 plus days of the conflict - and substantially greater atrocities in my opinion.
2. You wont find any disagreement on independent investigations of both sides. But look at the evidence and the facts. Israel has consistently refused to hold an independent judicial investigation of the campaign that over 80% of Israelis believe should happen. The ICJ also recognises that it is within the right of a State to investigate War Crimes and in doing so, the ICJ would stay any action. So that's why the ICJ have pushed ahead with the case because Israel will not. Recall that the UN offered to independently investigate sexual violence on Oct 7th - Israel refused because the UN said they'd also investigate sexual violence in Israeli prisons/detention camps. Finally, Israel denies access to Gaza of independent journalists/press. So, Israel does not want any external scrutiny of its campaign because it knows it would very damaging. They won't even investigate themselves.
3. Israel's actions are framed as War Crimes and Genocide because what they're doing perfectly fits the definitions of those crimes. The ICC, ICJ, UN, aid/humanitarian organisations, world leaders and even Israelis have accuse Israel of War Crimes and Genocide. That you don't like such criticism is irrelevant.
4. I find your posts highly hypocritical - you claim to stand for justice, dignity, safety, security for all yet you still "blame" that on "failed by leadership, ideology, and cynical geopolitics". No - all that needs to happen is Israel ceases its campaign of killing civilians either by military means or starvation and Hamas returning all the hostages and leaving Gaza.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123513690#Comment_123513690

This was a good reply. You actually went a long away to address points put to you. I agree with a lot of what you said. If I don't condemn Hamas in every thread it's because I assume my position on them is clear. The targetting of civilians is despicable. This is why I could never support their suicide bombings in Israel. Anyone who does so is a hypocrite if they are then proclaiming to abhor violence and the intentional targeting of civilians. However these people are a minority-certainly on this thread it would seem the vast majority do not support Hamas. Hamas using civilians as shields is wrong. However we know the IDF also has used Palestinians as human shields. That needs to be condemned too.

As does the deliberate withholding of aid from civilians, that can't be excused on the basis of a war is going on . There is clear evidence of this and it is a war crime to deliberately starve civilians in pursuant of a political objective. You can't claim to be a democratic and civilised state while at the same time committing wicked war crimes like this. There should be no muddying of the water over this and general reluctance to accept that this is what occurred for 11 weeks. I mean Israeli government ministers admitted to what they were doing. I would also agree with you that people on both sides have made bad choices in who they elected and the cycle will continue if Likud and Hamas- or a variant of them- are still on the scene when this war finally ends.

The irony is the right wing in Israel and Hamas have had a sort of symbiotic relationship ;where by one needed the other to justify their own position, with as you say civilians on both sides paying the price for it.

dmcdona

Remember the Palestinians cautiously walking up the road carrying white flags when the IDF shot them?

I do.

"Most moral army , in the world, ever"

IDF Promotes Officer Who Soldiers Said Ordered to Shoot Gazans Carrying White Flag

Cluedo Monopoly

According to the RTE news, the IDF monsters killed at least 17 people today including women and children while bombing tents and already destroyed buildings. One child removed from the rubble already had a cast on her leg from a previous attack/injury. Again, what possible military objectives can in any way justify this wanton murder?

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123513311#Comment_123513311

The Zio fanboys are in apoplectic rage and meltdown on social media about their spokespeople being strongly challenged and rebuffed in every interview like this. It must be the biggest shock of their lifetime to see the western media turn against them like this.

Sweet.Science

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123512192#Comment_123512192

Is this aimed at me for some strange reason ? Or are you talking to yourself.

Sweet.Science

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123511714#Comment_123511714

No the goalposts are moving . I was just saying a war can commence the day after a ceasefire ends .

Sweet.Science

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123514282#Comment_123514282

Thats not what you said though. You said 61 days after a 60 day ceasefire. Which would mean it had ended.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123514282#Comment_123514282

But just to be clear, can you credibily say that a "war can recommence" when all the bombing, shooting, killing, maiming, starving is done by one side and one side only?

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123514209#Comment_123514209

It's clear now that journalists are not going to pander to Israeli spokespersons or Israelis prepared to be interviewed.

Because it is clear that Israel has absolutely no intention of doing a u-turn to try and salvage whatever respectability they might think they have, journalists are rightly taking them to task. But journalists have way more ammunition and talking points they need because every single day there is yet another Israeli atrocity.

I believe the Israelis and their spokespersons will start avoiding interviews like the plague - they must see that it only makes matters worse - for them.

Good for the world of course that we see exactly how morally bankrupt Israel is.

As a side note, alleged War Criminal #1 is being cross-examined in his domestic case today

On 21 November 2019, Netanyahu was officially indicted for breach of trust, accepting bribes, and fraud, leading him to legally relinquish his ministry portfolios other than prime minister.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123514317#Comment_123514317

I thought the domestic court case was suspended while the "war" is ongoing?

Sweet.Science

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123514293#Comment_123514293

Technically thats incorrect. As Hamas are still firing rockets at Israel (unsuccessfully) But thats not the point i originally commented on. It was a poster being shocked a war can recommence the day after a ceasefire ends.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123514359#Comment_123514359

You called it a war.

Q1. How many Gazans have been killed since last ceasefire?

Q2. How many IDF or Israelis have been killed since last ceasefire?

Q3. We are talking 3 "rockets" right?

Sweet.Science

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123514412#Comment_123514412

Well it 100% is a war. Not a fair one though.