Garda Industrial Action - someone convince me they aren't attempting a massive swindle here

downtheroad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121171127#Comment_121171127

And that's why they get turned into a pinball when they drive a Garda car into a rough estate. There is a serious lack of respect for our police.

_Kaiser_

I have to admit, it's hard to have sympathy when you read stories like these..

https://www.irishtimes.com/crime-law/2023/09/27/garda-left-scene-of-road-crash-and-refused-to-answer-door-to-investigators-gsoc-report-reveals/

Gsoc’s account reveals the presiding judge found the Garda member “had not left the scene to avoid reporting the accident or taking responsibility, but rather to avoid being breathalysed”. The judge “found him not guilty of the charges before the court, but remarked that his handling of the incident was not becoming of a member of An Garda Síochána”.

Of course the Judge should have been asked why he let the member away with it regardless, but this is all part of the wider problem in the justice system.

Or the other story in that article..

Another public interest case opened by Gsoc commenced after media reports stated a Garda recruit had been arrested after being found driving while intoxicated. The disciplinary inquiry confirmed the off-duty Garda recruit had been stopped by colleagues in a Garda patrol. However, those gardaí “dropped the Garda recruit home instead of driving him back to the Garda station to be processed”.

While those involved were sanctioned by disciplinary procedures, it's very hard to feel sorry for Gardai when they not only get away with stuff like this at the time, but are enabled by their colleagues. Were it not for the media reports would it ever have come to light?

The entire standard needs to be improved. It seems very little has changed since the days of writing off penalty points for connected folks or breathalyser test discrepancies - both of which led to the rather transparent rebranding of Traffic Corps to "Roads Policing" to try and get away from the image.

Boggles

It's interesting the timing of these stories.

Another one.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-41236696.html

_Kaiser_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121172383#Comment_121172383

Yup but convenient timing or not, the reports themselves are still concerning in that little seems to have really changed in terms of professionalism and accountability - unless caught out and exposed in the media.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121172443#Comment_121172443

Garda sergent with criminal conviction (suspended sentence for assaulting someone on the job) reinstated

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/supreme-court/garda-commissioner-loses-appeal-over-dismissal-of-sergeant-1.2868930

Can we not at least expect that the guards themselves don't have criminal convictions?

Str8outtaWuhan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121171898#Comment_121171898

That's nothing to do with the guards, that's to do with left wing ideologies getting into our schools, courts and civil service.

Yeah Right

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121173507#Comment_121173507

Does everything have to be shoehorned into a left vs right shoebox? What is this ****?

Left wing ideologies have SFA to do with Gardaí being attacked. Zero. The cnuts throwing rocks at and ramming Garda cars are no more lefties than I am a spaceman. They don't give a fcuk about left vs right, they're a bunch of scumbags who were dragged up. Leftists support direct government regulation and intervention, with the extreme left looking for an almost totalitarian oversight by the Government. They WANT the Gardaí to intervene. They don't want them to be pelted by rocks or whatever.

Also, this is the problem with people spouting crap about which they are clearly undereducated. You have people contradicting themselves all over the place. You seem to be advocating for a more 'hands-on' approach by the Guards, correct? Isn't that the antithesis of right wing ideology, who want to be completely independent of the Government and, by extension, the police force? Are you a lefty, by your own accidental admission? Or are you basing all this on the recent BLM/defund the police crap that you're getting from US-based rags?..................."Well the lefties HATE the police, according to Fox, therefore anyone who hates the police enough to throw rocks at them must be a leftist"

Answers on a postcard.

talla10

In 2012 the Westmanstown Roster was introduced and agreed upon. This was the first time since the 1970's AGS changed their roster. The previous roster was eight hour tours seven days on two off, seven days on two off, seven days on three off.

The Westmanstown Roster is a six day on four day off roster worked over a repeating ten week cycle. This roster introduced a fifth Garda unit to allow for an overlap of units at certain times. In 2015 the Garda Inspectorate released a report stating this roster was unfit for purpose. In 2018 the Future of Policing In Ireland commission found the roster was inflexible, didnt allow for effective supervision and was unfit for a modern police force.

When Covid hit in 2020 AGS were given 72 hours to move to the current roster working twelve hour tours four on/four off. This roster has become popular with members as it allows for better work/life balance. In 2021 Drew Harris stated he was unable to return to this roster as he did not have enough Gardai (approx 14,200 at the time) Furthermore the crossover of Units was only 18 hours a week leaving 135 hours where units were short in manpower with no crossover of units.

In 2022 Harris tried to introduce the Mahon roster where core units remained on the Covid roster and specialist units worked eight hour tours seven on, two off, seven on three off, seven on two off. GRA and AGSI both rejected this for obvious reasons. When this roster was defeated Harris informed Gardai he was returning to the Westmanstown Roster. This will mean disbanding or serious reduction of Gardai attached to Community Policing Units, Crime Task Force, Drugs and Detective Units. Many local policing forums have written to Harris outlining their objection to this roster as this will severely reduce Garda visibility and their ability to provide an effective public service.

Thats the background of the saga. Harris has been told if he delays the introduction of a roster everyone knows won't work by even three months progress could finally be made if all parties enter talks in good faith. Last night, in an attempt to discredit Gardai, Harris the Garda Commissioner revealed allegations that 4 Gardai engaged in disgusting behaviour. Whilst the behaviour described in grotesque and an insult to all members of AGS it is 4 people out of 14,000 and for the leader of the organisation to throw the entire force under the bus to divert attention from him is far from leadership.

whisky_galore

Oh boy, didn't have long to wait until we had the "immigints" to blame for things.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121173641#Comment_121173641

It seems he is much more inclined to speak to journalists rather then his own people.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121173686#Comment_121173686

promoting single families

Fact. Bring back the days when the Parish Priest use to deliver the battered woman back to her abusive husband with a promise John would never do it again for the 3rd time that month.

Leftist idealogy in our schools e.g. restorative practice instead of detention and a good caning.

Enjoy a good caning, did you? Matron.

Str8outtaWuhan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121173881#Comment_121173881

They were also the days a woman could spend her life raising her kids , never have to worry about money because her husband provided for them all. No latchkey kids , no children raised by strangers in a crèche.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121173888#Comment_121173888

Yeah but the TB was awful to be fair.

hamburgham

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121170359#Comment_121170359

I don't know why there isn't more discussion about 12 hour shifts.

I've heard that it's illegal for medical staff to work a 12 hours shift in Australia because of the risk to patients.As the poster says, I do not believe anyone can work effectively for 12 hours.Then they have to go in and do it again the next day. And we're told that these are exhausting, stressful jobs. There is no doubt that performance must suffer when people are exhausted.

Nurses in particular never stop moaning about how exhausting a 12 hour shift is (which I can well believe) and yet they won't give them up. In the interest of everyone's welfare and given the compromised performance, I don't think they should be allowed for Gardai or medical staff.

ebbsy

This is just like RTE, ie the Benny Hill show.

Both as useless as an ashtray on a motorcycle.

Galwayguy35

The ex RUC man is probably on borrowed time, its hard to see how he can keep the job in the long term if the rank and file have no confidence in him.

McEntee wasted no time saying it was nothing to do with her, probably too busy working on her pet project.

Str8outtaWuhan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121173902#Comment_121173902

TB ? You must have been rich, it was consumption in my day 🤣

BillyHasMates

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121173641#Comment_121173641

Pretty accurate. It should be made clear that the Westmanstown roster was not a permanent roster. The rep bodies agreed to give it a go on a trial basis since the roster had to change due to the previous one being in breach of the working time agreement. It was never accepted as a permanent roster though which is what senior management seem to be implying to the media.

It is also hard to label the previous talks as negotiations when one side (Harris) just lists his demands and is completely unwilling to show compromise, especially when rosters have been put forward that are not too far removed from what he wants but offers much better work and life balance.

The major issue that needs tackling is the recruitment and retention issue. If it continues to worsen as recent trends are showing then no roster is going to make the service work. It's not far away. There seems to be no will to address it either at government level or senior management level. It is the primary factor that is driving the disillusionment and frustration which led to the no confidence vote. Members watching colleagues leave each week to other jobs while the leader of this country calls them all "a bit silly." Serious lack of awareness but it will be interesting to see how bad it gets before the government wake up.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121173888#Comment_121173888

Those "days" never happened, except in the rose tinted memories of people who only experiences one side of society.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121173729#Comment_121173729

Even when it was the bears I knew it was them.

francois

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121173507#Comment_121173507

Drivel

PeadarCo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121175096#Comment_121175096

Genuine questions. Why did the gardai go 40 years odd without changing their roster? Why was it eventually changed?

It's a long time to go without changes given the huge changes in Ireland both societal and technological in that time.

BillyHasMates

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121175488#Comment_121175488

I couldn't tell you why it didn't change before. When it changed it was because the one being used at the time was in breach of the European Working Time Directive. It had to change.

Gusser09

Dublin city in shite, rural crime out of control. I rang the garda about an attempted break in at my house. 4 days later got a call asking if i still wanted a follow up. During that time i met 2 checkpoints for tax and insurance on the main street of my town.

Leave them off. You wont notice a work to rule or strike.

Patrick2010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121175236#Comment_121175236

Growing up in Dublin in the sixties neither my mother or any of my friends mothers worked so yes those “days “ happened

Gusser09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121175236#Comment_121175236

They still happen.

Witcher

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121175562#Comment_121175562

You do realise things like this are part of the grievance the GRA have with Garda management as part of this dispute?

A car gets logged on at 7am/pm now in some stations and are told there are checkpoints to be done.

When the Gardai raise these issues locally..

'There are calls holding...'

'Yeah anyway the checkpoints are to be carried out as listed...'

There are 6 divisions in Dublin and there can be upwards of 50-60 calls holding at any one time in 2 of them and even the other 4 will have 15-20 holding. This is in the best resourced area in the country.

People really need to start seperating in their own head between the Gardai they see and Garda management who decide what happens in their district, division, region yet who haven't answered a call or gotten into a patrol car in 20+ years.

Nearly every emergency service in the country is in dispute with management and the government due to resourcing, workload etc.- AGS, DFB, NAS, retained firefighters, the Defence Forces, Coastguard etc.

Do people honestly think that all of the people working in these services are wrong and that resourcing and management priorities in these services are fine?

talla10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121175488#Comment_121175488

That was down to the attitude of Government and Garda Management towards Gardai. Traditionally AGS was a much more disciplined force than today. There was no roster prior to the 1970s- Gardai just worked as directed. Newer recruits in the 40s-70s worked when directed- often 20 days/nights in a row with maybe a day or two break before another set of days worked and no overtime paid. More senior Gardai got better time off as they had been through the same system.

In those days Gardai had no representative associations- In1960s they finally succeeded after what was called the Mascushla Revolt- Six Gardai were dismissed by the Commissioner of the day but later reinstated for organizing a meeting to discuss pay and conditions. Again during this time recruits lived in official accommodation until a Superintendent gave permission to live away from Stations- usually when getting married. However the fiancée of the Garda was interviewed by the local Superintendent to ensure she was of good enough character to be the wife of a Garda- If the Supt didn't give permission the member was dismissed if they went ahead with the marriage. A few married in secret as a result.

Women couldn't join prior to 1959- If they fell pregnant or got married they were required to resign. Look at the awful treatment of Majella Moynihan who got pregnant outside of marraige in the 1980s. The father, a male Garda, was relatively left alone whilst Ms Moynihan was forced to give the baby up in catholic Ireland of the 80's.

All in all AGS has made massive strides in the last two decades with access to associations, employee rights etc won and paid for by those who came before us. Unfortunately Drew Harris is from a different era where he still believes Gardai must simply follow his orders at all costs.

_Whimsical_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121172383#Comment_121172383

This is pretty horrific - very strange that your issue here would be with the "timing" of the story release.

In the UK we have seen a police officer turn out to be a serial rapist and a police officer who was exposing himself and speaking badly about women eventually go on to pick a woman up under the guise of detaining her and then rape and murder her. We also have seen UK women report being detained and given strip searches and internal searches and being left without clothes for hours - one a girl who was 14 and taken from her classroom for questioning on a matter.

Men who have issues dealing with vulnerable women are a danger to us all too, to our siblings and children and friends. Really disturbing for all of us that the Garda commissioner would be put in a position of having 4 guards on staff he believes are a threat to vulnerable people. How on earth is the tax payer shelling out to keep these men in cushy desk jobs?

Why are the guards not up in arms about this? Aren't these the very people their job is to protect the public from, not to mention the reputational damage this association should cause them?

Very strange!

He said that over recent years, none of his recommendations for dismissal have been upheld at the appeals process.

In particular, he raised concern about individuals who he had “lost trust in” their ability to deal with vulnerable victims.

....

He later added: “Their past behaviour has been entirely reprehensible.”

He told reporters he was speaking about “three or four” individuals.

He said they are being kept away from victims “as far as possible”.

BillyHasMates

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121178314#Comment_121178314

No Guard should know anything about these cases. How do you expect the Guards to be up in arms about it when they shouldn't have any knowledge or info on any of them to begin with. The only ones who might have been aware are senior management and perhaps the DPP. Nobody else should have had any awareness of it.

By Harris's comments at the Policing Authority meeting where he brought it up, there was not enough in either of the cases for criminal prosecution and an appeals board decided not to sack them. He raised it because he is seeking enhanced powers for the commissioner to dismiss people and is drafting new disciplinary regulations.