Garda Industrial Action - someone convince me they aren't attempting a massive swindle here

_Whimsical_

So the Guards have announced industrial action which will see them take action on several days including flashpoint days like Budget day and Halloween.

The reason is that they are unwilling to return to pre-covid rosters like the rest of the country has.

So what does that mean in real terms.

The change in state brought by Covid rosters meant they worked 6 fewer shifts every 60 days, according to the GRA that equates to 31 days off extra a year, worked more unsocial quiet hours which meant easier work, and you can be sure also meant they worked more paid overtime because we have had 31 days less policing per guard each year since 2020.

I can see how this got 99% support at a vote. Who would want to go back to working 31 days extra?

They are now advocating for longer shifts - for the supposed hardest job in the country. How many people have a job that see them able to give their best after 11 hrs supposedly on their feet??

So am I missing something? Are they really planning to hold the country to ransom with industrial action for this?

Below two articles with quotes on the details mentioned above.

When the pandemic period began in spring 2020, new Garda rosters, specifically for the pandemic, were introduced.

They involved Garda members working longer, 12-hour, shifts four days on, four off rather than six on, four off

Those pandemic rosters have proven very popular with rank-and-file gardaí because – due to the longer shifts – they work six fewer shifts every 60 days.

And more of their time in work generates unsocial hours allowances, meaning their remuneration has increased.

https://www.irishtimes.com/crime-law/2023/09/28/garda-commissioner-drew-harris-insists-he-is-willing-to-compromise-in-rosters-dispute/

The GRA claims that the roster as proposed by the Commissioner will require gardaí to work 31 more days per year.

https://www.thejournal.ie/garda-gra-meet-minister-6173592-Sep2023/

Yeah you pretty much hit the nail on the head, which is why there's virtually zero public support for what they are doing

_Whimsical_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121170187#Comment_121170187

I don't think the public are aware, and I notice it's couched in the media in very vague terms, you have to hunt down the exact details on what pre-covid rostering means and even then no place presents it as exactly what it is - preposterous! I suppose every journalist has a guard in the family and no one really wants to rock the whole Gardai boat anyway because essential services are ultimately essential to us all.

I can't see anyone getting behind it if they knew the facts though. Very frustrating that it's being let go down like this.

nachouser

It's a job. Like asking turkeys to vote for Christmas.

Witcher

A 2019 report for AGS management found the roster Harris wants to go back to was unfit for purpose even then, now with fewer Gardai available to work it, it's even more unworkable.

https://extra.ie/2023/09/21/news/irish-news/roster-garda-dispute

HeidiHeidi

The average weekly hours worked under both rosters are the same.

gipi

The pre-Covid shifts were shorter, so they switched to more condensed working (12 hrs x 4 shifts instead of 8 hrs x 6 shifts).

_Whimsical_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121170298#Comment_121170298

I don't understand how more "condensed working" services anyone here though, except in terms of extra days off. There is no way you can perform to the best of your ability in a demanding job over 12 hrs, you would have to be conserving yourself all the way through and then accepting you are dead on your feet by approach to the last hrs and just unable to function adequately.

Jim_Hodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121170339#Comment_121170339

Tell that to all the medical staff working 12 hour shifts.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121170279#Comment_121170279

Rostering using 12 hr shifts is a lot less flexible than 8 hour shifts

Rubberchikken

I work 4 12 hour shifts. I have to be as capable of going in the last hour as in the first.

This is holding onto a very, for them. Handy roster and in time a way to get rid of the commissioner. Imo.

BrianBoru00

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121170339#Comment_121170339

but they're ok after 8 hours on their feet?

The guards are working the same amount of hours regardless of the roster. They work shift work so it's fairer for work/family balance to have four on four off.

So while they won't be at their best quality after 11 hours (like any of us in any job) they'll be a lot worse I'd wager for the entirety of day 6 having worked 50 hours previously.

As well as that it necessitates the current units reducing in size by 20% meaning less people can take leave and sick leave having a bigger impact

CrazyEric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121170411#Comment_121170411

This is it in a nutshell. If there is an extra cost due to unsocial hours or some other reason then the GRA should make concessions, there will never be concessions because they want their cake and eat it. If the "New" 12 hour shift Rota needs tweaking then they should sit down and discuss it like adults without all the posturing.

Having a vote of no confidence in the Garda Commissioner was just showing themselves to be unreasonable. Kick him in the teeth and then complain when he wont give you concessions, very clever negotiation tactic. Sometimes I wonder who is actually strategizing these things.

tayto lover

I read that the top Garda management also said that the Commissioner's roster won't work now because there are less Garda numbers. So the GRA are 100% right and should not work a roster that will have less Garda working at any time and therefore more danger for those who are working.

Str8outtaWuhan

Politicians won't do anything to anger guards, we all know what happened to the last one who stood up to them

https://jrnl.ie/848112

howiya

The Minister for Justice said this morning that there is no one that believes the old roster is workable yet the Commissioner is insisting it comes back in on November 6th. Seems bizarre.

"I think the facts are very clear here, there's nobody and that means the Garda Commissioner nor the garda associations who believe that either the current roster or the previous and incumbent roster is the right roster moving forward"

BillyHasMates

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121170366#Comment_121170366

The pre covid roster was 10 hour days not 8.

Slideways

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121170339#Comment_121170339

I work 8 x 12.5 hour shifts in a row while on days and 7 x 12.5 hour when on nights. It’s unpleasant (esp nights) but it’s not the end of the world.

Potential-Monke

When the OP has a completely incorrect claim in it, it's very hard to take any of it seriously. Sounds like someone else with a chip on their shoulder over AGS. They work the same hours on average over 3 months, as per the law. Gone from more 10 hour shifts to less 12 hour shifts. Better for them and their family, this whole work/life balance craic that everyone else seems to be allowed to benefit from. Not including the heroes who work beyond their scheduled times of course.

Every other thread about AGS where this is brought up, it's easily answered by the rosters being the straw that broke the camels back in a series of ongoing and every worsening issues, not just the roster. Harris is such a good commissioner, he's insisting on bringing in a roster that simply won't work and will be net negative for everyone involved. The vote of no confidence was correct.

I've worked both rosters as a Garda. The 12 hour one, while still crap, are so much better than the 10 hour one. I'll take 4x12 hour shifts with 4 off afterwards over 6x10 hour shifts in a row with 3 days off afterwards (the very first roster I worked in AGS had 7x8 hour night shifts, 36 hours off and back into 6x8 hour day/evening shifts). The members on the ground doing the work have seen the small benefit the 12 hours gives, with no monetary impact to speak of (or god knows people would be shouting it). Why wouldn't they want to keep that? And it's better for AGS in general, if it was staffed properly, which it's far from.

AGS don't have a union, they are blocked from having one, so what the GRA are and what they do is of vital importance to the Garda rank, even if they don't always do things right, it's better than nothing. Which is what the government and Harris want, a shut-up-and-do-what-we-tell-you approach. Gardai are people too.

I fully support their industrial action. Bodycams should have been a thing when I quit around 10 years ago, and they're only being trialled next year. Standard family hatchbacks with lights and sirens attached for patrol cars. Constantly far below required amount of members needed to do the job effectively. Zero government support. Zero management support. An ever increasing society where the bad guys don't go to jail, where there's hundreds of people with hundreds of convictions each walking the streets, terrorising their communities. An entire generation of untouchable violent youths. And a general public who think they're all the same, all corrupt. The job, from what I can tell, has only gotten incrementally worse since I left. Pushback was and is bound to happen when the camels back finally gives out, and it has.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121170894#Comment_121170894

Do you work the same conditions and pay as a Garda?

Tbh there are plenty of better paid jobs with better hours. Being a Garda seems to be more a vocation than a job now.

At the end of the day if they have trouble recruiting they need to either pay more or offer better conditions, and those currently working the job know the government and Garda commissioner have no choice, so good luck to them.

salonfire

They may as well have the Gardai piss on the oath at this stage. It's clear it means nothing to them. Riddled with indiscipline, and unable to carry out basic orders.

A disgrace to call themselves a police force.

Slideways

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121171093#Comment_121171093

I work in 40c+ for months at a time in the summer where the nights don’t go below 28c

So pretty tough conditions.

I would totally support doing 12 hour shifts for the AGS. My roster is even time on/off, it makes for a great work life balance and simplifies planning. Not sure how they do it but I would slightly stagger the start/finish times so they are not all coming in at the same time

Str8outtaWuhan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121171109#Comment_121171109

They are not a police force and hopefully never will be. Police forces operate by force ours are meant to operate by consent.

_Whimsical_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121171047#Comment_121171047

I would edit to correct one point if I could - I shouldn't have said that working unsociable hours was a positive for Guards because there was less work to do and they get to more overtime. I should have said it was a positive because it ensured they worked hours that attracted an unsociable hours payment on top of their salary. My bad on that one. I unfortunately can't edit the original post now.

Otherwise was there an incorrect claim? I am not trying to deceive, everything I've said has been reported in media. I have provided links within which you will find all of it.

I really don't understand how the GRA can defend retaining a roster that was instituted during a period where the entire country was locked down, no pubs open, not much travel on the road and yet despite the reduced workload Gardai were still not managing to respond to domestic violence calls. Violent crime has escalated dramatically in the last year and Gardai are not managing to adequately respond to this.

Just how is this working, except to provide Gardai with a better work/home balance?? How would we expect something created to respond to extraordinarily quiet times to respond to the current issues we face?

I listened to the GRA spokesperson on TV3 tonight bemoaning the work-life balance created by previous work rosters but unfortunately many jobs do not suit the work/life balance of the worker. That's unfortunately life. 4 days off is pretty wonderful by most people's standards.

From Tonight on TV3 : According to Drew Harris today the current roster is costing more, is resulting in 13,000 lost Garda hours per week, an equivalent of 320 Gardai from our streets. That's pretty damning.

Why should the public support the GRA holding the country to ransom by denying essential services on days you know are flashpoints for trouble?

I appreciate there are other massive issues for policing but there only seems to be one they are gathering around and making noise for. We didn't hear anything of the sort for the domestic violence victims left to deal with attacks themselves - mostly women and children. We aren't seeing the Gardai willing to strike for an overhaul of inadequate state response to young offenders etc.

I'm sorry but it comes across as cynical and self-interested.

Swaine

Overpaidand under worked. Won't get support from me. Our national police are an embarrassment.

Esel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121171274#Comment_121171274

Think you forgot to switch accounts there...

DEFTLEFTHAND

The 6 on 4 off was brutal. Your sleep patterns were cruel and inevitably you would have court on rest days.

The roster was under scrutiny before the Emergency Covid. It has been deemed as not fit for purpose.

hayrabit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121171336#Comment_121171336

Think you forgot to switch accounts there...

think nt.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121171274#Comment_121171274

DFNR m8

agree wholeheartedly,,,

yup, the sap gets hit for €250 for doing nowt

then they laughe about it and riducule/use homophobic slurs on ya when on yer way back to barracks in rozzermobile

lying , corrupt , criminal fcukking skum 😧

Aint No Forgettin'

no #forgetting heeh

😊

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121171274#Comment_121171274

If people who write like that do not support the Gardai, then I do support them.

Solidarity with the boys in blue.

enricoh

Detective down the local says with COVID roster you have cops on now when not needed. There's as many on a Tuesday morning as a Saturday night, which was no bother when everywhere was closed.

A big deal over recruitment and retention but every single industry is struggling for staff with full employment.

GRA will walk all over utterly inept mcentee, she'll bring the cheque book out n the job is Oxo.

salonfire

That's the problem with the Covid roster, staff at the wrong times.

What's with the mindset of these people? The euro and me-fein must come first above all else.

Do they not have sons, daughters, wives, neighbours walking the streets on a Friday and Saturday night? Wouldn't they prefer to have more Gardai at these times than on a quiet Tuesday morning?