Let's Be Honest Public Transport in Ireland is an Abominaiton Because it is Meant to Be...

DirectorKrennic

This is just entirely my own opinion but I think a big problem with Ireland is the lack of infrastructure in general ranging from lack of 'street cars' the way they have them in many big cities like Sydney and Toronto and the lack of an underground metro. I'd love if Ireland did less on current expenditure (a bit of a tax cut for everyone every year and a bit of an increase in social welfare - puts more money in all our pockets but doesn't stop rent going up and electricity bills etc.) and ring fenced money for infrastructure projects that actually get built.

I'd say a decent amount of people agree with me on this I think - there is a group that think the above is a lost cause so might as well have the tax cuts - and then some people agree with me but then say 'Okay but who's going to actually build this, and prices of materials have gone up and maybe the time to build was 2008 etc.'.

I don't know, I just sometimes feel Ireland doesn't really have a plan for the future. I mean most countries don't seem to have a plan in the West anymore. Portugal built a big underground and 'future proofed it' - it's so big it can handle years of population growth. Egypt are building a 2nd capital city from scratch.

To get a metro built though, and houses built etc. I honestly think it'd almost be easier to build a city from scratch at this point. Sounds bonkers when you first hear it but there is a lot of NIMBY in this country.

Anyway I'm not running the country, this is just my opinion!

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121142063#Comment_121142063

This is a story that does the rounds usually it is the West Cork in the telling, it makes for a good story but did it even happen?

whisky_galore

I just sometimes feel Ireland doesn't really have a plan for the future...

Quite true, we are really, really hopeless at this.

ArcadiaJunction

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121142366#Comment_121142366

The plan for the future is one thing only: Massive pensions for public sector staff.

Nothing else.

Sam Russell

The last census was a surprise.

We have suddenly realised we have a population of over 5 million.

We have also been surprised to realise we have infrastructure that would struggle with a population of 4 million, but not enough houses for most of the 4 million, but loads of mobile phones and cars - enough for six million.

So, can we build the infrastructure - probably, but we need more time.

Ballincollig Blow In

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121141020#Comment_121141020

As dislikable as the Tories are, even with the stripped back nature of HS2, it will still be absolute light years ahead of anything that currently exists in this country or will ever exist for that matter.

If the final version ends up being Old Oak Common to Birmingham Curzon Street, then they’ll have built the largest new station in the UK (OOC) which will serve HS2 and the Elizabeth line (another piece of infrastructure this country could only dream of).

It will also have connections to the west coast main line going to Paddington and the West/Southwest UK as well as the planned London Overground station for OOC to link in with the overground network.

None of that even touches on the fact it’s only 5 mins away from North Acton tube station, 15 mins away from Willesden Junction and maybe 30 mins tops away from East Acton and Acton Main Line.

The Brits are complaining about the Tories cost cutting and that it wont run to Euston. Angry that they wont get another brand new multi billion pound extension to Euston and what Ive outlined above about OOC “isnt good enough”.

Thats not even touching on the Birmingham side of things or any of the stuff in between. Curzon street is in the city centre. It will be directly connected to the existing Moor street station, and a 5 min walk to New Street station. They are already working on extending the West Midlands metro so it also integrates with it when Curzon street is built.

We can’t even double track a few miles of existing railway from Limerick to Limerick Junction. That’s how pathetic we are.

It’s all well and good dumping on the Tories and their cost cutting if we were a country with good railways and infrastructure, but we’re not. As crap as they are, they will still deliver infrastructure the likes of which Ireland wont see for at least a few hundred years (if ever) going by the current glacial state of anything to get built here.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121142089#Comment_121142089

we have got to remember that andrews wanted the west cork closed for his own political reasoning rather then viability or profit and loss.

i'm not talking about the branches which indeed would not have survived anyway, but the main line, which dispite being suggested for closure in the 1957 report, was modernised instead.

he was never going to listen to any protests or any deputations, even if the deputation that it is claimed went to see him existed, and had showed their tickets he would have found some other reasoning not to hear them out.

he apparently actually wanted the east cork branch closed as well, but was stifled on that score.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121142287#Comment_121142287

nobody seems to know, it's probably like this supposed 10 year rule that railways have to be left in situ after closure, which i suspect is based on the north kerry line being left for so long between permanent closure and lifting.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121144237#Comment_121144237

a lot of the aspects of the project that it integrates with were delivered by non-tory sources.

the fact is that a very credible project which could have delivered so much, will now deliver very little.

just because the tories have kept the project going does not mean very much, and to say it is light years ahead of anything here is a bit much when grown up countries have being delivering high speed lines for decades and those lines generally have delivered more from day 1 then hs2 ever would have if built in full.

i am very much a supporter of hs2, for capacity reasons, but even i can see the many, many faults with it and that it will no doubt damage the cause of big projects long term, which is a great, great pity.

ArcadiaJunction

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121144439#Comment_121144439

So nothing was built in the UK then because of 'Tories' - gotcha, so Crossrail and HS2 construction is all in my mind while our Carbon-friendly Irish government delivered everything. Thanks for clearing that up.

Cookiemunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121142366#Comment_121142366

No plans for the future? Metrolink? DART+? Bus Connects, Cork regional rail? The recent MATS plans for the cities? The even more recent cross border rail review?

On the contrary there are massive plans for the future. Irelands issue has never been no plans for the future, it's always been implementing any of these plans.

Cookiemunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121144237#Comment_121144237

We can’t even double track a few miles of existing railway from Limerick to Limerick Junction. That’s how pathetic we are.

Sorry, what? We can and will double track this line. This reason it wasn't done previously was that there was little to no interest in improving rail in the country. That attitude has changed and this is one of the easy win projects that will happen.

We don't need a high speed line like HS2. We're a low density country whose demographics doesn't justify such a system.

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121146442#Comment_121146442

Planning and implementing those plans, you knew that of course but you want to score some pedantic brownie points by appearing to be smart.

KrisW1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121144581#Comment_121144581

Funding of Crossrail was a Labour bill. Construction began in 2009. One of the first acts of the Conservative-Liberal coalition was to cut its funding, adding a year to the project in the process...

HS2 began on 2010, when the Conservative-Liberal coalition approved the proposal produced by the previous Labour government. The stripping back of this project began once the Conservatives were in power alone.

You have to ignore a lot of facts to paint the UK Conservative Party as being in favour of rail transport infrastructure..

.. and if we're going to compare foreign countries' policies to ours, isn't it time we stopped looking at the UK? Aping their bad ideas on rail has got us into a lot of our current mess..

Cookiemunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121146518#Comment_121146518

You said Ireland doesn't have a plan for the future. That is definitely not the same thing as planning and implementing the plans which you claim the country doesn't plan.

Anyway, planning and implementation is underway on multiple projects. Metrolink, DART+ and Bus Connects are with ABP. Preliminary work has started on Metrolink. Dublin bus routes have already been changed for Bus Connects. The contractor has been announced to resignal the Cork Middleton line.

It could be way faster if ABP was actually a functional body, but there are definitely plans and implementation of these plans is definitely underway.

Zebra3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121147150#Comment_121147150

On the last bit fully agree.

Ireland probably best compared with Denmark and Dublin with Copenhagen.

Charles Babbage

I was in Norway over the summer, which has long lines to Bergan and Stavanger from Norway. These are electrified, which is wise in Norway where electricity was nearly free at some times owing to the earlier floods and the consequent availability of hydro power. The Bergen train over 6 hours, which implies a speed including stops of around 50 Kmh and the Stavenger train is not even that fast. These lines are scenic and the engineering is tricky, but they have not prioritised speed.

Ronald Binge Redux

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121146464#Comment_121146464

And this is the problem. All rail projects in the Republic are low hanging fruit ripe to be cancelled because The Powers That (Presently) Be see them as a reward for post development rather than a prerequisite for it.

Ronald Binge Redux

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121147439#Comment_121147439

I wouldn't be too proud about any of that. Implementation is a joke here because Official Ireland [at Present] sees colouredy lines on maps for a press release as a launch. Nicely oaked chardonnay and cheese on crackers go down much better with the press than actual shovels in the ground.

Charles Babbage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121153632#Comment_121153632

Quite. There needs to be people getting on at stations, that is implementation.

ArcadiaJunction

People can not get their heads around how evil the Irish political Establishment are. They can't concieve that all these rail reports and plans since the 2003 Strategic Rail Review are just fairy tales with no plans to actually build anything. People may say 'what about the billions spent on consultants?" but this is part of the evil too. The reports are put out there as an excuse to fund more paperwork (consultants) and to buy votes. However, there is no agenda to actually build anything. It is all theatre. You can call me conpiratorial and paraniod, but I have had a toe in that world (regarding transport) since 2000 and I know first hand how evil and devious the Irish Political Establishment are. Ireland is fantastically corrupt. Just in a highly sophisticated manner and all the main players still get paid.

Cookiemunster

'Evil'. Christ 🙄

Also Ireland is constantly ranked as one of the least corrupt countries in the world.

Beta Ray Bill

The issues around public transport around Ireland are compounded by many factors

An Bord Pleanála

This organization is a huge problem, whether you're planning for a wind farm or an extension on your house you submit planning application to the same entity. This is a problem. Secondly how the organization is run is questionable. There are allegations of serious corruption in ABP (such as a woman from Swords, reviewing/taking on every planning application made for, or relating to Swords....). Thirdly, the decisions they make and things they allow builders to do is very questionable. Such as allowing builders/developers to build right up to the edge of major roads/rail routes, hence eliminating any expansion possibilities (Bus Connect, additional Rail lines ). In fact they allow developers to close a lane of traffic for months on end to facilitate building to the edge of the road and having a drop off area for supplies while construction is underway, this is madness. Clarehall/Malahide road, Raheny Road, Tara Street.... I'm looking at you

Nimby'ism

Genuinely, I feel if you live more that 400m away from a development you should have no right object to planning on it, unless it's extreme circumstances (public land, park, Motorway, Aviation, etc) and we should be able to trust ABP to make the right decisions and let the builders know what they can and cannot build. Viable public transport needs be included in any development seeking planning permission. Case in question: Howth Junction - Howth Line set to be curtailed to feeder service yet, 500 apartments are being constructed in Howth with a view to construction more in Deerpark. So at the moment we don't have that, which I believe is the reason Nimby'ism is so bad (We all know they're just gonna throw it in any old way, so everyone objects.)

Need for a Centralized public transport procurement system

Having Politicians (TD's) talk about Metrolink construction is stupid. Metrolink is not an national issue. It's a North Dublin Issue. Basically we need a system where the government says how much it will give each year to this transport body and the money will be divided out amount the various public transport companies and to procurement, IE TD's have no say on what's built and where. This way TD's can save face when opposition from the Nimby's arises. It would also allow city management and ABP to interact with a main body and work together planning for the future. Instead of panning to some politician who's just gonna kick the can down the road, and might not even get elected next time.

Like I know for a FACT that Irish rail and DCC have basically 0 communication. the same applies for Irish rail and ABP.

Metro in what ever form it was called has been kicked around for 22 years at this stage, next year is make or break for it.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121158078#Comment_121158078

If you ever lived in a really corrupt country, you would not post such nonsense. The biggest part of the problem is not corruption, but a particular form of risk aversion. Politicians and especially civil servants are afraid to make decisions in case they will be blamed if things go wrong. One way to avoid blame is to make no decisions, and just get endless consultancy reports, reviews etc, etc.

Not corruption, but cowardice.

AndrewJRenko

Here's a great example of the kind of NIMBYism that previously has stopped public transport getting prioritised to date, with the new found interest in mobility for older people and people with disabilities (but only the older people and people with disabilities who have cars, of course).

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/dublin/2023/09/24/dundrum-residents-march-over-council-plans-to-close-access-routes/

It doesn't look like they're going to succeed this time, with Councillors from FF, FG, Lab and GP all supporting the changes.

Charles Babbage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121158436#Comment_121158436

One wonders why these councillors are making life more difficult for their constituents by obstructing travel. Is there a big $ development going on here?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121158475#Comment_121158475

Did you mean to say "constituents with cars" there?

Thanks for proving my point on NIMBYism beautifully.

Cal4567

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121158334#Comment_121158334

Actually in my view you both are correct. Seen enough laziness in the civil service/local authority areas and as for corruption, at a smaller scale, but still there. Regulation across many areas has helped but regulation Irish style is really largely a post financial crash enforcement. We still have a laissez faire attitude, but that is changing, albeit slowly.

Risk aversion. Most certainly. I have worked with considerable public sector agencies. Covering one's ass was a national pastime, very difficult to get anyone to put their heads over the parapet to make a decision. Ireland is also very small, many fish swimming around in a small pond. Feck up in a sector/industry, and you're tainted for life - or so people think. Just a mindset.

Charles Babbage

"Did you mean to say "constituents with cars" there?"

Which is most people in Dundrum.

The point is thoiugh that this is nothing to do with commuting, it is about local people being able to get to their local facilities, many of whom are older and no longer commute to work, school, or college.

Cal4567

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121158436#Comment_121158436

Would we see that in any other capital city across Europe? I don't think so. Dundrum may have been a village, but probably only really so until around the 1950s. 70+ years ago!! Now, I'm a lover of nostalgia, but that is pushing it a stretch.