Is there any party or person worth voting for in modern-day Irish politics?

Ardent

I was just thinking to myself -

If there was a general election tomorrow, it would be the first time in my life I wouldn't bother to vote.

I would consider myself a centrist.

• Can't vote for Fianna Fail because I'll never forgive them for the corruption and bankrupting the country.
• Can't vote for Sinn Fein because of their paramilitary past and their pie-in-the-sky, populist Robin Hood proposals.
• Can't vote for Labour because they have a lunatic, rabid feminist leading them now.
• Can't vote for Fine Gael because they have a recent track record of placing unqualified, lazy and incompetent buffoons into ministerial positions.
• Can't vote for most of the independents as they belong to the looney left.

Am I missing anything?

suvigirl

Social democrats?

EchoIndia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058312647/is-there-any-party-or-person-worth-voting-for-in-modern-day-irish-politics

Most of your reasons for not being willing to support one party or another don't seem to have much to do with policy.

Allinall

Sounds like you have no interest in who runs the country.

Thats fine, but your subsequent complaints will amount to nothing more than shaking your fist at the sky.

CrookedJack

You're missing the point that by not voting you're ruling out trying to get the least worst solution. instead, you're making it no more beneficial for a politician to lean in what you think are sensible directions. You're fundamentally misunderstanding representative democracies.

That is if you're asking in good faith. It's much more likely you're doing the cynical, trumpian ploy of trying to say all politicians (or media outlets, or experts) are as bad as one another. The purpose being to both dissuade the moderate voter from voting for anyone and also make the lunatic fringe seem more mainstream.

Brussels Sprout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058312647/is-there-any-party-or-person-worth-voting-for-in-modern-day-irish-politics

You sound right-wing. You should just own it.

If you don't want to vote FG then there are plenty of right-wing independents around the country (any of the Rural Independent Group for example). Failing that you can vote for one of the far-right micro parties.

If kind of sounds like you're looking for some idyllic party who satisfy all of your demands. That's not really going to happen. So you can either choose the least worst option for you or you can just not vote.

Lollipop95

What about the Soc Dems? Holly Cairns is a great leader imo. If you don't vote and FF/FG get in, you can't then complain about the way the country is. I'm of the opinion that Sinn Féin deserve a chance and I'll certainly be either giving them or the Soc Dems my #1 in the next GE.

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058312647/is-there-any-party-or-person-worth-voting-for-in-modern-day-irish-politics

I know how you feel.

Maybe the answer is to vote for the party that you dislike the least?

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058312647/is-there-any-party-or-person-worth-voting-for-in-modern-day-irish-politics

Plenty of independents are not looney-left

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121081522#Comment_121081522

What do you think Sinn Fein will do differently, vs the current gov?

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121081977#Comment_121081977

It is odd that there isnt a centre right party in reland anymore.

You would think that a party that was serious on crime, housing, control of immigiration and prioritisation of working folks over non-working folks would go down a storm in the current climate.

But it seems nobody wants to stand on that podium.

Geuze

Yes, that's what FG should be.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121081522#Comment_121081522

The Soc Dems are a split from Labour, Roisín got herself in a twist and decided to go off and have her own party.

I'll see if Labour are running anyone here again next election and what their policies are. Of the various parties, still one of the few choices. That and like minded independents.

Perversely, though I've never voted FF, I could throw their local TD a vote this time. As a bulwark against SF getting in.

Lollipop95

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121082003#Comment_121082003

I think they will attempt to sort out the housing crisis for once and cut down the price of accommodation. Not immediately of course, but I feel like Mary Lou is very genuine and actually wants to make a difference. I don't get that vibe off Leo Varadkar. On a personal level, Michaél Martin comes across like a nice person but FF have been in government on and off for years and just haven't made any kind of real change. Sinn Féin might be the same of course, but I'm curious to see how they would fare being in charge and if they can live up to their promises.

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121082227#Comment_121082227

I would love if SF can sort out the housing crisis.

Do they have specific policies to increase the number of: blocklayers, carpenters, plumbers, electricians?

Do they have policies to reduce the costs of sites, and the costs of finance for property development?

This seems to be their policy document:

https://www.sinnfein.ie/files/2022/Delivering_Affordable_Homes.pdf

I can't see any policy to boost the supply of labour?

What I see is compulsory movement of labour away from commercial construction to residential.

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121082227#Comment_121082227

I think they will attempt to sort out the housing crisis for once and cut down the price of accommodation.

Not going to happen, unless they change tac on their support for tennants and evictions.

Their very pro tennant stance will drive smaller landlords out of the market.

Plus I doubt they will be giving any incentives to the building trade to make it worth their while to start building again.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121082227#Comment_121082227

I hope youre right but wishful thinking I think :)

SF wont bring the cost of housing down by handing more properties to the social housing list. This will make the remaining properties for sale even more expensive for buyers, as supply decreases.

To increase output, they would need to invest heavily in council home building, but I dont think they have any plans to do that and it would take a lot of investment to enable.

In short, you probably wont see any uptick in new home completions over the next 5 years or so, if SF get in.

But it will likley be even harder for working folks to get a place, as SF prioritise social housing over private rents for average salaried folks.

A lot of current working people will realise that the current govt are a case of "better the devil you know", sadly.

Ardent

To the poster querying whether or not I was asking this question in good faith -

Yes I am. I think most people would agree that current Irish political landscape makes for a very poor vista.

I sometimes wonder if voting for Sinn Fein would be a good thing, i.e., a shock to the system for the longer term good. But not sure if I could bring myself to that.

Sad state of affairs.

pixelburp

Talk about a "lunatic, rabid feminist" leading Labour and the "looney left" betrays this might be another iteration of a discussion that eventually crystallises into the true lament that there's no openly right-wing parties.

And the answer as always remains: those parties don't exist, because hardline social or economic right-wing politics isn't palatable to the Irish electorate; and when those parties do appear like Renua or the National Party, they barely register on election night.

I think our crop of parties is exactly what more countries could do with: bland, centrist porridge that's more interested in stability than populism. Now, the flip-side is that a collective allergy to change has resulted in much of the rot that has infected institutions like the HSE et al - but I'll take the sometimes frustration of smal iterative changes over big swings & rotating-door cabinets.

Geuze

Nobody wants "hardline" far-right parties, and as you say, they do very badly, yes.

A centre-right party would be nice though?

As BlueSkyDreams said:

You would think that a party that was serious on crime, housing, control of immigiration and prioritisation of working folks over non-working folks would go down a storm in the current climate.

That's what I'm looking for.

• Actually reform Judges and laws to actually deal with criminals
• massively increase the supply of housing
• bring bogus AS numbers to zero / reduce UKR refugees to be in line with norms across western EU
• don't have people on 40k, below median earnings, face 48.5% marginal tax rates

I see sheep

Boards members always winging about the lack of right wing parties should set up their own one surely?

I'm sure you'd easily break 0.01% of the vote.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121082851#Comment_121082851

SF will get in for 1 period. If they even last 5 years will be interesting. They won't deliver any housing of note. And FG/FF will waltz back in at the following election.

People will speak of The Simpsons predicting the future...it will be a carbon copy of Homer becoming sanitation commissioner, only to be replaced by Ray Patterson after he royally screws things up.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121086046#Comment_121086046

....its very important to realise what our current governmental parties are actually truly in favour of, particularly in regards housing, its the more financialised approach, and its working perfectly....

Brussels Sprout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121084671#Comment_121084671

I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here and state that the big mistake that all of those failed/failing parties make is that they are populated with people who are obsessed with Abortion and other social issues. That's an electoral dead-end. The people who voted against the Same Sex Marriage and Abortion ferenda are mostly older voters whose votes are locked in to FF/FG/Rural Independents.

I don't actually know if there is an appetite for a newer iteration of the PDs out there. I do know though that those other parties weren't it. You're not going to get a new party off the ground in this country if you immediately alienate everyone under 45 which is what those parties did/have done.

DownByTheGarden

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058312647/is-there-any-party-or-person-worth-voting-for-in-modern-day-irish-politics

I would have to agree with you 100%. Im not going to bother voting next time.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121086046#Comment_121086046

Your list there is impossible

You are not going to find a party that delivers item 2 while also doing 3 or 4. Market intervention to get private builders building costs money so can't happen with 4, social housing won't happen with a party that's pushing for 3

You will not find a party offering 3 that isn't far-right; it is not something a centre right party will say.

And 1 is unconstitutional - the Government cannot influence the judiciary.

Pauliedragon

I have no political affiliation but I do think 5 years between elections is too long. They have too much time to be comfortable and just plod along. 4 years gives them a year to settle in 2 years of hard graft and as we all know the year before a GE it's all election mode and promises so nothing gets done.

Nody

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121086413#Comment_121086413

As long as you don't then complain about what ever policies gets implemented afterwards...

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121086417#Comment_121086417

No.1 - can the Govt not legislate to remove torts?

For example, under current mad law, bystanders and witnesses of an accident can be awarded just for seeing it.

Surely it's possible for Govt to legislate to remove this?

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121086417#Comment_121086417

2, 3 and 4 are unrelated.

Take 2 - it is possible to reduce site costs without State exp, use taxes on land.

Remove regulatory delays, remove Uisce and ESBN delays.

There are lots of things that could be done to boost housing supply which don't involve direct State exp.

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121086417#Comment_121086417

No. 3 is exactly what a normal centre-right party should be saying.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121088109#Comment_121088109

They can't control the judiciary, that was my point.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121088111#Comment_121088111

Removing those delays isn't free. If you can't realise that, you are only continuing to delude yourself that a party can come out of nowhere and promise you everything.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121088114#Comment_121088114

Yeah, no, that's a far-right point there. Sorry. One half of it far more so than the other, but both far-right.

As soon as you start talking about "bogus" or "illegal" asylum seekers you've fallen in to the far right circles. The State can get quicker at deciding on valid versus invalid claims, but the "bogus" language ruins any attempt to be rational about it.

Other Western European countries taking in proportionally lower number of Ukranian refugees are generally established NATO members contributing military aid to Ukraine. We aren't. A part proposing to cut those numbers would only get votes from Russian apologists, and hence the ultra far right.

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121088115#Comment_121088115

It takes one month to install an offshore wind turbine, it takes 6-7 years to get the permissions.

I feel it should be possible to reduce the 6-7 years.

You disagree.

Why?

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121088118#Comment_121088118

It can't be done for free.

What you want is not a centre right party, it's a unicorn.

Geuze

If a pol party wants to reduce the number of UKR refugees to equal the ratio per person in DE and FR -- that is "far-right"?

I disagree.

DownByTheGarden

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121086541#Comment_121086541

Couldnt possibly complain as much as im complaining now about those who I did vote for tbh.

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121086357#Comment_121086357

The problem, as Lucinda Creighton discovered, is as soon you start pitching your party as in any sense conservative or right-wing, or even centrist, you automatically become a magnet for this sort of headbanger

people who are obsessed with Abortion and other social issues

and put off the mainstream right-of-centre voters. This guy has some sage advice for any aspiring centre-right candidates

https://joblog.substack.com/p/how-to-be-the-controlled-immigration

 if I'm actually looking for a way to throw away my chances then that one couldn't be easier. I'd just have to talk about Covid, vaccines, the world economic forum, Klaus Schwab, excess mortality, international finance or the freemasons. Mention any of them and the fat lady starts singing.

Murph85

I reckon I'll spoil my vote. There is no straight talking , non spoofer in the Dáil, prepared to look after the taxpayer and sort out the endless farce that bedivil this country... I'd laugh if a credible fourth force emerged in irish politics... one that would canabalise fg in particular, a party that ours the taxpayers first. Fg are more concerned with the welfare vote than taxpayers at this stage.. Ireland " right wing " partly... LOL!

Brussels Sprout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121110921#Comment_121110921

I thought you emigrated? You had a big thread about it saying you had enough of the place or something. You may as well. Sounds like you hate the place.

Murph85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121112285#Comment_121112285

That's the plan in a few years...

Ffg - light on crime. Rough n the taxpayer. No new heavy rail lines installed since British rule. Poor on the environment. Awful infrastructure. Health. Can't even defend ourselves, airspace or waters... mass vote spoiling is the best way to register our disgust

Brussels Sprout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121112322#Comment_121112322

Literally nobody will take a blind bit of notice spoiled votes.

By all means do it if it makes you feel better but that's about the only thing it will accomplish.

Murph85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121112547#Comment_121112547

Many people are sick of the system and the idiots that run for it here. A huge increase in spoiled votes, wouldn't go unnoticed...

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121112612#Comment_121112612

It would be ignored totally by everyone.

It would be different if spoiled votes were counted towards the quota, but they are not. They are just ignored.

pixelburp

A spoiled vote is a spoiled vote; it means absolutely nothing - except I guess to the person doing the spoiling but it would have precisely zero quantitive effect on the vote, or the politics falling out from it. The only situation where mass spoiled votes might have an effect would require a buy-in by such a huge percentage of the voting population as to render the idea pure fantasy.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121112322#Comment_121112322

Can't even defend ourselves, airspace or waters

From whom should we be able to defend ourselves? However burdened you think the taxpayer is now, you think it'll be better if we're to fund an armed forces "capable" of defending our territory?

28064212

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121112612#Comment_121112612

That's probably true, a huge increase in spoiled votes may well have some political impact.

But what does a huge increase mean? A ten-fold increase would probably be a reasonable figure to consider as "huge". In 2020, there were around 17,000 spoiled votes (which nobody took the slightest bit of notice of). If there was an organised protest movement that resulted in 170,000 spoiled votes in the next election, that would be noticed. For context, that's more votes than the Green Party got. It would make the "spoilers" the fourth biggest political group, after the big three of FG, FF and SF.

Of course, that begs the question: if you could put together a movement that could obtain 170,000 votes, why wouldn't you form a political party that would actually get elected from those votes?

And that's why no-one will pay any attention whatsoever to spoiled votes.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121112322#Comment_121112322

*complains about taxes*

*calls for policies which will require large increases in taxes*

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058312647/is-there-any-party-or-person-worth-voting-for-in-modern-day-irish-politics

I was brought up in the house of grand uncle, a veteran of the Irish war of independence, in old age it was his custom on election day to sit out in front of his house and ask passers by if they had cast their vote, if the answer was yes, that is where it ended. If the answer was no, he'd give you a lecture...

First he'd point out that in casting your vote, you honour the dead generations that went before you, most likely your grand parents or great grand parents at this stag, who thought your right to express your opinion on how the country is governed was so precious that they were willing to pay the ultimate price to win you the right to do so. And in his case he saw his best friend shot dead during an ambush of the Border Regiment.

He'd also explain to you that not voting or spoiling your vote is a complete was of the one opportunity you have to make your views know as nobody cares about what your opinion is when you do either of those things. He'd further explain the reason why they picked the PR system over the UK FPP system - it allows you to express both a positive and negative opinion. By carefully using the preferences, voters can send a message, even to a sitting TD. So go and vote candidates in the order of which one you'd least like to represent you in the Dail.

MacDanger

While a single spoiled vote makes no difference, if there was a large-scale spoiling of votes by people who ordinarily don't vote, it would make a big impact. Let's say instead of 65% turnout, you had 75% turnout with 10% of the vote spoiled, it would be a clear signal that a significant % of the population don't feel represented by the parties available. Personally, I don't see it happening though

Nody

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121113212#Comment_121113212

Yea, but the point is if we even take 1% as a baseline that's a big enough group that they could would be worth going after by one or more main parties. Heck even at 170k spoiled votes you'd be talking enough to take a seat or two if coordinated and that's where the idea fails. We hear a lot of noise on boards but the reality is there's not an organization or interest to actually do anything about it and hence they can safely be ignored by the parties.

Murph85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121113102#Comment_121113102

Lol! One ir two billion a year a large increase in taxes? They are finding it down the back of the couch with their various tax bonanza... does increasing welfare every year costing billions, are they increasing the tax rates to fund that ?