The Wolfe Tones

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121082761#Comment_121082761

Correct, and those who try to glorify them should be ashamed of themselves. During the troubles, most Catholics / Nationalists in N.I. did NOT support the PIRA. And here south of the border, Sinn Fein's vote was miniscule dure the troubles. As asked before, how could chanting "Up the Ra" not taunt / divide people? Wolfe Tone supporters should realize hundreds of thousands of people had family / friends (inc those of our Gardai ) maimed or killed by the IRA. Plus the economy destroyed for decades due to the IRA targeting "economic targets" / murdering innocent industrialists? No laughing matter.

If people in America had to listen to a band on stage and thousands chanting "Up the 9/11 bombers" or UP THE BOSTON BOMBER", how would they like it? The IRA bombed shopping centres, office blocks,, hotels, restaurants ....and were the biggest murderers during the troubles, which was their (failed) campaign to get the British out of Ireland. The British government flew Adams and the IRA leadership to London for talks in 1972 and pleaded with them to stop the violence but they said they would not until the British left. We can thank the PIRA for 3 decades of violence. Most people realize there is no difference between the Boston bombers / 9/11 bombers and the PIRA. that is why support from America for the PIRA dried up after 9/11.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121082709#Comment_121082709

If the vast vast majority of young people lean left in their attitudes, they would not be displaying the intolerance inherent in the Wolfe Tones chant.

We are back in the 1920s when populism was the key ideology.

Snooker Loopy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121083844#Comment_121083844

There's a fundamental hypocrisy at the heart of some of the self-styled "woke" crowd who support Sinn Fein. You can't be "woke" if your default reaction is to dismiss anybody who brings up the victims of murder and the cover up of paedophilia and rape. That is itself a dismissal of those victims. That's anti-woke.

Dismissal of real victims (the dead and abused woman and children) to protect an institution is an inherently far right position.

Annd9

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121083860#Comment_121083860

So you are saying 69% of the population of this country hold a far right position. That's a crazy statistic .

paddyisreal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121083795#Comment_121083795

Lmao, says the man who resorts to calling everyone a trumpite, a shinner bot or a Putin lover when he doesn't like their opinion. You are making sweeping generalisations because you basically have no argument. Young people today sing "up the ra" because they want to and it doesn't make them all shinners, paedophile supporters, trumpites etc .

Snooker Loopy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121083960#Comment_121083960

The Trump cult comparison to Sinn Fein's online cult is a deeply accurate one. They behave in exactly the same way. Ethnonationalism's modus operandi is the same the world over.

Snooker Loopy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121083958#Comment_121083958

Try bringing up the victims of paedophilia and rape in the Provos with an online Sinn Fein supporter and see how far you get.

You'll be met with either silence, whataboutery, bad faith sleight of hand, bluster or open mocking. Your response here is a good example.

By definition, if you support Sinn Fein, you do not give a flying fig about victims of paedophilia or rape because you are supporting those who covered it up and still do.

Francis McM

Thousands, or tens of thousands, led by a "band" on stage and all loudly shouting /chanting "Uh Ah Up the RA" are really directing hatred towards the victims of the IRA , and their families, friends,communities. Chilling, intimidatory stuff.

It reminds me of the " also National socialist" Nuremberg rallies, where large crowds gathered and also knew vaguely the also far right policies they were supporting with chants of Sieg Heil. National Socialism is dangerous stuff to be playing with.

In the years to come, I wonder how many more Omagh bombers the W.T. may have recruited? I hope I am wrong, but seen it all before.

Snooker Loopy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121084038#Comment_121084038

There are strong elements of all those things alright. It's "Make Ireland Great Again" nonsense. Backward looking, harking back to an imagined golden era of national greatness. In Ireland any such ideas are very much figments of the imagination.

I'd much rather have a good country than a "great" country, because the very idea of a "great country" has proven disastrous consequences throughout humanity.

To me it matters not whether Northern Ireland is part of the UK or Ireland. Building a good society is the only thing that matters. Northern Ireland, sadly is plagued by the tweedle dum tweedle dee bullshit of The DUP, reactionary Unionism and Loyalism on the one hand and Sinn Fein and reactionary nationalism on the other hand. Both battling for supremacy. As long as those are the two main forces, the eternal cycle of bullshit will go on. The idea of supremacy for one group is incompatible with a good society.

Annd9

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121084019#Comment_121084019

Well aren't you very presumptuous .. The 69% I was referring to was the percentage of the population who identify as Roman Catholic.

Seeing as religion is a choice and using your logic, 69% of people in this country are far right paedophile supporters.

As I said crazy statistics .

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121084007#Comment_121084007

The rise of ethnonationalism in the 2020s mirrors the rise in the 1920s when it was embraced by both right and left, whether the National Party in Germany on the right or the Russian motherland of the left-wing communist party in Russia. Dangerous ideologies that only led to suffering.

Trump, Le Pen, Syriza, Sinn Fein, Brexit, all facets of the same dark thinking.

Snooker Loopy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121084115#Comment_121084115

Complete nonsense. One can quite easily identify as a Catholic and have devout faith yet acknowledge that the institution of the Catholic Church behaved abominably, created countless victims, betrayed the trust of the people and needs to go through a long process of atonement. The mere fact of being a Catholic does not automatically reduce somebody to being a mindless zombie.

Sinn Fein as an organisation still refuses to acknowledge the scale of the paedophilia/sex abuse cover up within the SF/IRA movement, because to do so would be very politically damaging to it, not least because the primary figurehead of Sinn Fein, Gerry Adams, is at the heart of that cover up.

Covering up is also the modus operandi of its online support. That's why we have the silence, constant whataboutery, bluster, bad faith sleight of hand or open mocking of those who bring it up.

Snooker Loopy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121084128#Comment_121084128

I'd be broadly somewhere on the left on the political spectrum (last time I voted Green, Labour, PBP in that order) but it's scary the amount of people who claim to be on the left who exhibit so many of the same cult like characteristics of the anti-woke/far right cult. A lot of them have a lot to learn.

Sinn Fein online supporters have a tendency to blow a fuse in their brain when confronted with the simple fact that you can't credibly claim to be on the side of victims throughout society if you insist on celebrating those who murdered civilians for 27 years and covered up paedophilia and other sex abuse. The protection of the institution us always the most important thing for Sinn Fein and its online support. Where have we seen that before?

There's also a blind spot on some sections of the left for certain cult like figures such as Fidel Castro. Woe betide if you point out that there was/is anything problematic about Castro or Cuba. And a tendency to downplay the despotism of any dictator who is against America, most obviously Putin.

This was also a tendency in the 1930s when Stalin's purges in the Soviet Union were taking place. Some western socialists were able to use their brains and realise that the Soviet regime was actually grotesque and barbaric. Others weren't and continued to plead blind fealty to it in the face of reality.

paddyisreal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121084177#Comment_121084177

Have Fianna fail , Fianna Gael ever apologised for handing the running of the state over to the Catholic church resulting in the abuse of thousands of children over the last 100 years? Have they apologised for tuam babies, Magdalene laundries etc ? Remind me who has been running the countries for the last 100 years.

Remind me who is the only party aligned with a fascist and actually went to fight with them ?

Or is it just the shinner paedo you have a problem with ?

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/news-opinion/pat-flanagan-fianna-fail-no-21644911

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121084271#Comment_121084271

What is your point, if it was not for Republicans we would not have had the abuses of the RCC in the 20th Century? You have a point there, those abuses, Magdalene laundries, Tuam baby murders etc would not have happened had the islands been united / us still part of the UK.

TokTik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121084007#Comment_121084007

SF are as far from ethnonationalists as can be. They’re an open borders, we’re all human, let them stay bluffers party.

Your comparison to trump is mindlessly stupid.

Ash.J.Williams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121084271#Comment_121084271

I recommend the Dr noel browne documentary on rte, a clear admission from a td that we were a Catholic country and we do what the Bishop (mcquaide) says, browne had some progressive ideas for women and children's Health but got blocked by the bish

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121083958#Comment_121083958

The PIRA are a Marxist-Leninist group. They specifically have used Leninist justifications for their actions in many cases. That is how they justified things like bank robberies for instance which they claim as "expropriating" funds for revolutionary activities. Its straight out of the Bolshevik playbook, e.g. the 1907 Tiflis bank robbery.

These posters are very lazy in trying to connect Wolfe Tones fandom to Trump and the far right populism of the past. Its astounding ignorance.

paddyisreal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121084384#Comment_121084384

Yes seen the documentary before. Noel Browne was ahead of his time. The running of schools, hospitals etc was passed by successive governments from the foundation of the state to the church and that government always contained either fine fail or fine Gael. I am asking have either party ever apologised for it ? My own opinion is that there is nothing to apologies for as child abusers are predator and will seek access where they can. The same applies to sinn fein.

Snooker Loopy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121084364#Comment_121084364

All nationalism is at its heart ethnonationalism. Sinn Fein talk a good game on immigration and I welcome that but the nasty ethnonationalist edge frequently shows itself, at least outside of the more disciplined leadership level.

The Up The Ra chant is a demonstration of that horrible ethnonationalist edge because it's a celebration of the people who waged a 27 year murder campaign.

It's no different to if you had Serbians chanting about Ratko Mladic or Croatians chanting about the Ustase or Israelis chanting about the Stern Gang.

paddyisreal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121084312#Comment_121084312

The op keeps referring to sinn Fein and some child abuse stuff. I am asking the same regarding ff,fg and the running of the state. Imo it's all smoke and mirrors. It's very hard for any political entity, organisation etc to be responsible for all its members actions unless it was systematic

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121082845#Comment_121082845

I doubt you'd find a single Irish Republican who supported the armed struggle who would "stand over" the Le Mon, Warrington, Omagh or any bombing that took civilian lives.

Yet they defend these actions and will never condemn them. Instead, they will harp on about something else and try and excuse it given the context of a war and so on.

The simple truth is, the PIRA don't see their actions as wrong. They see innocent women and children blowed up, with their body parts strewn across the street as part of their campaign to 'free' Ireland from Britain. While they may be sorry it happened in hindsight, there is no genuine remorse from them or their tactic of using indiscriminate violence on their part.

Even Tom Barry of the older IRA condemned them and their methods.

The PIRA always phoned in warnings before bombings, 

Categorically not true.

yes civilians were still killed or injured whether because of screw ups by PIRA members or screw ups by the security forces. Bad **** happens in all wars on all sides. If the PIRA goal was to kill civilians then they would hardly send warnings in advance would they? What warning did the civilians in Dresden or more recently in Baghdad get?

And so it starts.. the lame excuses.

Another poster that is banned used to harp on about Dresden too.

Why are you so reluctant to condemn the atrocities of British murderers

Because its off topic.

Usually when we talk about atrocities carried out under our name by PIRA psychopaths, the 'whataboutism' always starts, as if that excuses it.

If you want to talk about what the British did, go start a thread on it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121084271#Comment_121084271

Enda Kenny officially apologised on behalf of the State in the Dail

Annd9

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121084177#Comment_121084177

The Vatican as an organisation still refuses to acknowledge the scale of sex abuse/cover up in the RC movement all around the world. To do so would expose the primary figurehead of the church .

https://www.irishtimes.com/world/europe/2023/03/06/late-pope-john-paul-ii-accused-of-covering-up-child-abuse-by-priests/

By getting married,baptised etc in a RC church you are funding an organisation who still refuses redress and justice to its victims.

Would I be silly enough to assume all Catholics support this stance ? Of course not that's ridiculous , I also think it's ridiculous to accuse young people who are turning to Sinn Fein as apologists for disgusting events carried out before they were born.

Snooker Loopy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121084589#Comment_121084589

There are people here who have backed themselves into such a corner that they probably think Tom Barry was a "West Brit".

As well as opposing the Provos, he himself served in the British Army in World War I and his father was in the RIC.

paddyisreal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121084605#Comment_121084605

Yes for the state is a bit different, did fg,ff apologies ? They were running the country for the last 100 years

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121082826#Comment_121082826

They were fighting against absolute psychopaths who just wanted to kill Catholics

Odd though, how the PIRA killed more Catholics than the British Security forces....

What does that make the PIRA?

paddyisreal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121084622#Comment_121084622

Did tom barry apologies for the kilmichael ambush ?

Snooker Loopy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121084613#Comment_121084613

You're whatabouting again with a laughably ludicrous comparison.

I've never seen a Shinner or a Sinn Fein supporter admit that Gerry Adams covered up paedophilia.

They can't bring themselves to admit this, it would be too damaging to the institution of Sinn Fein.

Adams himself knew his brother was a paedophile, yet stood idly by as he was moved around from place to place up to 2006, working with children.

https://sluggerotoole.com/2013/10/03/in-his-brothers-child-rape-case-gerry-adams-faces-his-own-appalling-vista/

Liam Adams worked with children in Dundalk and later at Beechmount and Clonard from 1998 to 2006, again in the full knowledge of his MP brother. In allowing it to happen, Gerry Adams put hundreds of children at risk of abuse by not disclosing the matter to anyone.

------------

As Gerry Moriarty reported in the Irish Times even in the mid 90s, Adams was unequivocal in denying his niece, or any one else, the option of going to the police:

…in January 1995 he said people should not report alleged cases of child or drug abuse to the RUC. This was during the first IRA ceasefire, when Sinn Féin still refused to accept the legitimacy of the RUC.

paddyisreal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121084589#Comment_121084589

Tom Barry said in 1976: “I back the right of Republicans to shoot, kill and bomb British occupying forces. Nobody can deny that. But I do not back the bombing of obvious civilian targets like pubs and that bloody carry-on.”

Tom barry did support the pira just not some of their methods. Just to be clear. Not as clear as you like to portray