Bedroom window fire safety!

steven1987

Hi everyone I have been going back and forward to management company regarding my child's bedroom window.

Long story short the window used to open inwards they decided to change it a few years ago but iv been fighting them as the window installed is now a fixed window with no opening! They installed a vent.

The window is in a lane way photos attached

Basically if my apartment went on fire outside my child's room how does she get out? The window isn't temper proof just basic double glazed no fire exit in bedroom, am I right in saying every bedroom must have a window that opens a certain amount?

Im getting nowhere with company as they said its within fire regulations in which i find mad as this is not practical

if someone's in that room and a fire is outside hall door your gone noway out for a 7 year old!

Any advice or help would be amazing thank you Steven.

Rows Grower

That should be a window that is fitted with a restrictor but can open to allow escape in case of emergency.

steven1987

Will I have to get a independent fire safety officer?

Rows Grower

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121050588#Comment_121050588

Not at all. Write to the landlord and keep a copy of the letter, if nothing is done about it report it to the RTB.

muffler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121050588#Comment_121050588

Not necessarily. Contact the fire officer or the building control officer in your local council. Try to resolve the issue with the management company in the first instance and if they dig their heels in then inform them in writing that you are requesting an inspection from the council engineers.

10-10-20

Was the window previously inward opening tilt & turn with full escape access, such as this:

Do you know what the justification was for the change, were there security issues with the original windows given that the side passage appears to be public-access?

sydthebeat

if the room is not an inner room, and the apartment doesnt exceed 4.5 in height, and the final exit is at the same level, which its looks like, then technically the room does NOT have to have a window for escape purposes (BS5588: part 1, section 4.2) as long as the room is not an inner room ie there is direct access from the door of the bedroom to the final exist without having to go through another room.

in case of a fire, a window is only ever an alternative means of escape, the first means of escape is always through the hall and out the door.

This all being said, personally i would not feel comfortable having a child in a bedroom which didnt have an escape window, regardless of what the regs say, especially since theres clear easy escape from that window.

However, not having an openable section actually means the room does not comply with ventilation regulations (TGD F), which require 'purge' ventilation to be provided:

unless there is some other kind of rapid ventilation method provided, which it doesn't look like going by your photos.

BlackEdelweiss

Restrictors are not allowed on escape windows unless based on a risk assessment on the liklihood of the occupant being more likely to come to harm or self harm as opposed to the risk from fire. Generally only acceptable in cases concerning mental health care facilities.

As someone else said, it potentially is not required for means of escape purposes.

If you are worried about fire, make sure your smoke detectors are always working and always close all doors onto the corridor at night. Early warning and protection of your escape routes are your best chance of survival.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121051563#Comment_121051563

restrictors are a requirement on all windows to habitable rooms when the distance from the window opening to the outside ground level exceeds 1.4 m

BlackEdelweiss

That says in certain circumstances and that restrictors released by keys or tools should not be used on escape windows.

This is a ground floor window.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121052326#Comment_121052326

yes, the "certain circumstances" that are referred to is the 1.4m distance that i posted already.

the restrictor is not allowed to be key lockable, or require any tool which is removable.

obviously because there is then a risk that the restrictor is locked and the key / tool lost

read section 2.7 here (from TGD K)

Doop

RE the ventilation point raised OP you will need to measure the vent to see if it complies, if not then you have a point to argue with the mgmt company.

As stated above your primary escape from the room is into the hallway (protected corridor) and out via the hall door.

Re the restrictor... that window appears less than 1400mm from the ground so I don't think it would be required but it would have to be measured.

If you are very concerned you could mount a glass hammer behind the curtain somewhere if it would provide you with more comfort. But I get that you are not really looking for a work around.

https://www.screwfix.ie/p/fire-safety-emergency-hammer-s-belt-knife/48101?tc=CI6&gclid=Cj0KCQjw9MCnBhCYARIsAB1WQVWBVr3Ih5Zv-x_4K959fHFxADTSbPuoo29AT70fg6HQlXJAeDI0BlYaAgndEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/FQGgJdNgukE

Personally I too would want an openable window

steven1987

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121050770#Comment_121050770

I went on holiday and came back to my ensuite and bedroom windows got replaced for fixed windows. They said because my windows lead on to a fire escape.

My issue is if a fire happened out side her door she has no escape she's trapped inside,

The back and front of building has big communal areas for fire assembly points.

The window didn't open out it open and tilted inside

Thanks everyone great information

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121053306#Comment_121053306

They said because my windows lead on to a fire escape.

This may be pertinent information, let's see what the others say here.

steven1987

Few more pictures

Gumbo

Is this an apartment?

Escape from the apartment is into the protected entrance hall and then through the common lobby to the exit.

Bedrooms do not require the alternative window escape (think of people in an apartment 9 stories up!)

Opening out into a fire escape is a no no too. There’s even some reasonable call for those windows along the route to be fire rated.

muffler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121055041#Comment_121055041

When you mention 9 stories up of course fire escape window is useless but you have to think about rescue which is covered by regs.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121055225#Comment_121055225

Of course and depending on the strategy TGDB/5588, 9991 etc

The ground floor windows may never have been designed as escape windows.

steven1987

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121055041#Comment_121055041

This is a ground flooplr apartment what if a fire was outside my daughters bedroom door? What is she supposed to just wait in her room because she'll have no other way out!

Also the window was a tilt and open in window

steven1987

This is outside her door in to bedroon

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121055687#Comment_121055687

please tell me those doors have self closing mechanisms??

and where does that door to the RHS with teh fan over it lead to? bathroom?

rayjdav

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121055041#Comment_121055041

This is exactly what I was ready to reply with. TGD Part B Vol2 S.1.3.7 deals with dwelling houses and not apartments.

You should be looking for the Fire Cert Application and granted conditions and thats where you argument should be based around. If it does not comply with that then they have a case to answer. IMO.

Good design and regs do not necessarily always go hand in hand.

steven1987

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121055781#Comment_121055781

No door only has hinges with built in springs.

That other door is where washing machine and dryer is

Vent is basically for inside that washing storage

sydthebeat

"Hinges with built in springs"

So does it self close or not?

BryanF

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121050726#Comment_121050726

+1

OP, search ‘planning enforcement form [enter city/county] ‘

BlackEdelweiss

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121055665#Comment_121055665

I think you are being a bit alarmist here.

You are in a ground floor apartment so thank all your lucky stars for that for a start. Be more concerned about your poor neighbors upstairs and how they might escape if there is a fire in your apartment. I would bet that the passive fire stopping in your building is either non-existent or incorrectly/inadequately installed.

How exactly would there be a fire outside your daughters bedroom door? Do you keep a lot of combustible materials and sources of ignition here? If so, stop doing this. I do notice a clothes rack in the photo in the hall, you are obstructing the means of escape from the bedrooms with this and adding a combustible fire load to the means of escape.

As per my previous comment, make sure your fire alarm system is maintained, batteries replaced, maintenance company doing their regular checks or whatever the requirements for the system installed in your apartment are. Keep your doors closed at night to help contain a fire and allow you and your family the time to escape. Keep your hallway free from unnecessary fire load. Bedroom windows are a last resort and not a primary means of escape. You mentioned that it opened in anyway so it was probably not suitable for climbing out anyway.

Without reading the fire strategy for your building nobody can comment definitively on what the requirements for your bedroom window are. As someone mentioned, there is good cause for it to be fire rated and unopenable and the vent closed up or have a fire damper installed.

The fire safety standards for residential buildings (not just in Ireland) is shocking so, as I said, thank your lucky stars you live on the ground floor and take responsibility for the fire safety of your own family (as mentioned above) and stop looking for a bogey man trying to trap your poor daughter in her burning bedroom.

steven1987

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121068827#Comment_121068827

Why bothering commenting at all really not helpful with the remarks concerning my daughter no need whatsoever

Upstairs has two fire exits

con747

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121068827#Comment_121068827

Lets hope you never have a child in a room on a ground floor with no means of escape because they don't have the know how to break through a double glazed window to escape.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121051563#Comment_121051563

This is incorrect.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121053306#Comment_121053306

That is likely why it had to be changed, as if there was a fire in the unit and the window was open it would impact the escape route. You keep referencing the management company. Are you a tenant or an owner?

You also asked every bedroom must have a window, the answer is no they do not. In general it's best practise. But in situations where its not required you need to look at the overall risks. An opening window here adds at least two risks;

• The risk of fire spread to the escape route. There is an argument that the glass should be fire rated.
• Risk of a child falling out of the window. Based on the photos, an opening window here is a very big risk that a child would fall out child would fall out. The fall is only ~1m, but it still needs to be considered as part of the risk.

Most likely the management company is correct and it is currently compliant with fire. However, that doesn't mean you can't beyond the minimum requirements. There may be a bigger concern that purge ventilation is missing. I'd lean on that aspect, and acknowledge and accept the risks above.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121124432#Comment_121124432

Its an apartment. The escape strategy is to the Protected Entrance Hall and into the Protected Corridor an out the Main entrance.

No apartment requires escape by smashing a window. No need for the Drama. Facts suffice.

con747

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121125368#Comment_121125368

"Drama"? Well it's quite obvious if there was a fire in the hall outside that room in that apartment it would require smashing the window which is a fact.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121126781#Comment_121126781

If there was a fire is many strategic places windows require smashing.

It’s one of those “we can’t design for every individual circumstance” moments.

But it’s also why protected entrance halls and common corridors are sterile environments with very little if any fire load.

con747

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121126935#Comment_121126935

That is why the OP started this thread because the window was changed. "Long story short the window used to open inwards they decided to change it a few years ago but iv been fighting them as the window installed is now a fixed window with no opening!" I doubt a child would have the know how to break a double glazed window in a worst case scenario.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121126955#Comment_121126955

You should never be breaking any window.

con747

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121126970#Comment_121126970

OK, I think I will leave this here and let the child in the room make that decision while the building burns down.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121126976#Comment_121126976

Breaking the window acts like a vent. Could be more trouble by adding air to the environment.

Not sure what they’d smash a window with too, it’s not the movies, panes of glass will slice right through the child climbing out.

The same scenario is presented to every single apartment over 3 stories high in the country.

BlackEdelweiss

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121124466#Comment_121124466

I was referring to the type of restrictors installed by a building owner for security purposes after installation.

BlackEdelweiss

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121124432#Comment_121124432

When I was 23 I was locked out of my house one night when I was quite drunk. I had the bright idea to smash one of the double glazed windows in the house. It took me about 4 or 5 swings with a garden rake to break the window. There was an explosion of glass both inwards and outwards. The window was not suitable for climbing through.

Believe me, a young girl is not going to smash through a double glazed window.

If you knew anything about this topic you would know that escape windows are not for smashing, they are for climbing out.

BlackEdelweiss

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121124417#Comment_121124417

Look back through my posts. I have provided you with fire safety advice that could potentially save you and your family. The responsibility for the safety of your family lies with you. You requested advice and you have received advice from a number of people who work in the field of fire safety, I can tell this because of the wording and technical advice they are providing you with.

I presume you are not a fire safety professional as you are disregarding the professional advice provided here and instead looking to make a big deal out of the window situation.

My fire safety guidance below:

• Check your smoke detectors regularly - smoke detectors = early warning, early warning means a better chance of survival.
• Keep your escape route clear of obstructions when you go to bed at night, you dont want people tripping or have something catch fire in your hallway.
• Close all doors at night before you go to bed, this will keep the smoke and fire in the room of fire origin and will hopefully provide you and your family with time to recognise that the fire alarm is beeping and to get out of the building.
• Make sure all your electrical cables are sound. Do not repair damaged cables, throw them out immediately. My wife bought an expensive electric blanket about 10 months ago. Last week she showed me the cable on my side of the blanket, it was chipped and split. I dont know how. The rest of the cable was spotless. The full thing had to go straight in the bin. If she was not rummaging behind the bed it would have gone unnoticed and was a serious fire hazard.
• Draw up a fire response plan. When the alarm goes, everyone should know exactly what to do. No wandering around sleepy eyed, everyone gets up and gets out the door. Involve your daughter and let her know what to do in the event of a fire alarm activation. Dont go looking for toys, dont go hiding somewhere, come straight to mammy and daddys room and wake them up if they are still asleep.

Fire safety is your responsibility, dont put your trust in a builder supposedly doing his job right 15 years ago. I inspect a lot of buildings and see a lot of **** work. Trust me, take care of yourself and your family. Dont rely on anything or anyone else.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121129225#Comment_121129225

Restrictors for security purposes? How would that work? Regardless previous poster was pretty clear on the function when he said;

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121050581#Comment_121050581

You says that was not allowed. Even doubled down in a follow up when @sydthebeat quoted the regs. It was wrong, they are allowed. No need to dwell on it.

BlackEdelweiss

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121129683#Comment_121129683

The conversation was over until you brought it up again.

I dont think I doubled down on anything. I saw syds comment and replied. The image he showed backed up where I was coming from, post installation restrictors. I was not arguing any point. His point was also backed up. We were both coming from different view points.

I have seen window restrictor devices added to windows in mental health premises where there is a risk of the resident either falling or jumping from an openable window. They had installed restrictor devices on the windows that were openable by a key.

HSE Information Sheet No 5 - Falls from windows or balconies in health and social care states the following:

I admit my original comment was not 100% accurate but it was not fully wrong either. Not sure why it has got your back up so much.

BlackEdelweiss

This is the product they had used and this is what I thought the poster was referring to. Apologies if it upset you so much.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121129745#Comment_121129745

That’s a very long winded way of acknowledging you were wrong.

The HSE guidelines applied to HSE situations. It in no way implies that is the only situation where they can be used.

I admit my original comment was not 100% accurate but it was not fully wrong either. Not sure why it has got your back up so much.

It hasn’t got my back up at all. I’m pointing out that misinformation so nobody is mislead by it. The forum is a resource for others.

And let’s be clear, what you say was fully wrong. Restrictors are allowed. You explained how you got mixed up, doesn’t make it less wrong though

BlackEdelweiss

You asked how window restrictors would work for security purposes. I was just explaining the situation where I had encountered this.

I'm not sure where you are going with all this, seems like a bit of an attack where I am not trying to force anything on anyone. I admitted I had got the wrong end of the stick and just clarified where I was coming from. At no point after my first comment did I say restrictors were not allowed. The issue was addressed about 2 weeks ago, not sure why you felt the cavalry was required to come in again and sort me out.

Well done on being right!

con747

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121129258#Comment_121129258

I think the whole point of the thread the OP started was the fact the window does not open! Maybe read the opening post before telling me what I know about. The fact you were pissed when you had you're light bulb moment is hardly relevant apart from the fact it's probably why you took so long to break it. I think I'll leave you all to it here.

Rows Grower

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121129331#Comment_121129331

I looked back through your posts and what I see is an incorrect opinion contradicting correct information and after that an abundance of waffle masquerading as professional advice.

You were wrong, stop digging a deeper hole. Just admit you were wrong, apologise and move on with the rest of your life.

BlackEdelweiss

I admitted I was wrong. I was thinking about a different type of restrictor. I have no bother admitting when I am wrong.

My comments about restrictors not being allowed is still correct, it was just not relevant to this thread. I was talking about a different type of restrictor device that is not allowed and is stated as such in the snip of the tgd that was used to prove me wrong.

My abundance of waffle is actually sound fire safety advice. The op would be better placed implimenting that advice than worrying about escape windows.

I left this discussion 2 weeks ago, I'm just not sure why it's being dragged up again.

Rows Grower

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121131928#Comment_121131928

You said "I admit my original comment was not 100% accurate but it was not fully wrong either". To me, they are the words of someone who has some kind of bother admitting they were wrong.

Your insistence that "my comments about restrictors not being allowed is still correct" is totally wrong.

It was wrong two weeks ago and it was wrong yesterday.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121131928#Comment_121131928

You half admitted you were wrong in a irrelevant post about the HSE. Then you added a "but it was not fully wrong either" and now "My comments about restrictors not being allowed is still correct".

It's was not correct. Simple as. The reason it's still dragged up is because you keep insisting it was correct despite you also being wrong. All you had to say was "sorry, I got mixed up with a different window lock".

BlackEdelweiss

My post about the HSE was in response to your comment about how a restrictor would be used for security purposes. I was showing you where I had come across this.

I have admitted that I was incorrect about my comment on the use of restrictors, multiple times. My comments about not being 100% incorrect are down to the actual section of codes that are being used to bash me also contains the wording detailing the types of restrictor devices that are not allowed. So, while my comments were not accurate for the response to the original comment on restrictors (which I have admitted to), they are accurate for buildings in general. That is all I was saying.

Why are you all fighting this so much? This is not even a thread about restrictor devices. And also, restrictor devices as recommended by the original poster are for windows 1400mm above ground which this window clearly is not.

I am officially out of this thread now, post away all you want. The egos of boards rear their ugly heads as usual. Such a load of bull ****.