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Child Item

Bedroom window fire safety!

steven1987

Hi everyone I have been going back and forward to management company regarding my child's bedroom window.

Long story short the window used to open inwards they decided to change it a few years ago but iv been fighting them as the window installed is now a fixed window with no opening! They installed a vent.

The window is in a lane way photos attached

Basically if my apartment went on fire outside my child's room how does she get out? The window isn't temper proof just basic double glazed no fire exit in bedroom, am I right in saying every bedroom must have a window that opens a certain amount?

Im getting nowhere with company as they said its within fire regulations in which i find mad as this is not practical

if someone's in that room and a fire is outside hall door your gone noway out for a 7 year old!

Any advice or help would be amazing thank you Steven.

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Rows Grower

That should be a window that is fitted with a restrictor but can open to allow escape in case of emergency.

steven1987

Will I have to get a independent fire safety officer?

Rows Grower

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121050588#Comment_121050588

Not at all. Write to the landlord and keep a copy of the letter, if nothing is done about it report it to the RTB.

muffler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121050588#Comment_121050588

Not necessarily. Contact the fire officer or the building control officer in your local council. Try to resolve the issue with the management company in the first instance and if they dig their heels in then inform them in writing that you are requesting an inspection from the council engineers.

10-10-20

Was the window previously inward opening tilt & turn with full escape access, such as this:

Do you know what the justification was for the change, were there security issues with the original windows given that the side passage appears to be public-access?

sydthebeat

if the room is not an inner room, and the apartment doesnt exceed 4.5 in height, and the final exit is at the same level, which its looks like, then technically the room does NOT have to have a window for escape purposes (BS5588: part 1, section 4.2) as long as the room is not an inner room ie there is direct access from the door of the bedroom to the final exist without having to go through another room.

in case of a fire, a window is only ever an alternative means of escape, the first means of escape is always through the hall and out the door.

This all being said, personally i would not feel comfortable having a child in a bedroom which didnt have an escape window, regardless of what the regs say, especially since theres clear easy escape from that window.

However, not having an openable section actually means the room does not comply with ventilation regulations (TGD F), which require 'purge' ventilation to be provided:

unless there is some other kind of rapid ventilation method provided, which it doesn't look like going by your photos.

BlackEdelweiss

Restrictors are not allowed on escape windows unless based on a risk assessment on the liklihood of the occupant being more likely to come to harm or self harm as opposed to the risk from fire. Generally only acceptable in cases concerning mental health care facilities.

As someone else said, it potentially is not required for means of escape purposes.

If you are worried about fire, make sure your smoke detectors are always working and always close all doors onto the corridor at night. Early warning and protection of your escape routes are your best chance of survival.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121051563#Comment_121051563

restrictors are a requirement on all windows to habitable rooms when the distance from the window opening to the outside ground level exceeds 1.4 m

BlackEdelweiss

That says in certain circumstances and that restrictors released by keys or tools should not be used on escape windows.

This is a ground floor window.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121052326#Comment_121052326

yes, the "certain circumstances" that are referred to is the 1.4m distance that i posted already.

the restrictor is not allowed to be key lockable, or require any tool which is removable.

obviously because there is then a risk that the restrictor is locked and the key / tool lost

read section 2.7 here (from TGD K)

Doop

RE the ventilation point raised OP you will need to measure the vent to see if it complies, if not then you have a point to argue with the mgmt company.

As stated above your primary escape from the room is into the hallway (protected corridor) and out via the hall door.

Re the restrictor... that window appears less than 1400mm from the ground so I don't think it would be required but it would have to be measured.

If you are very concerned you could mount a glass hammer behind the curtain somewhere if it would provide you with more comfort. But I get that you are not really looking for a work around.

https://www.screwfix.ie/p/fire-safety-emergency-hammer-s-belt-knife/48101?tc=CI6&gclid=Cj0KCQjw9MCnBhCYARIsAB1WQVWBVr3Ih5Zv-x_4K959fHFxADTSbPuoo29AT70fg6HQlXJAeDI0BlYaAgndEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/FQGgJdNgukE

Personally I too would want an openable window

steven1987

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121050770#Comment_121050770

I went on holiday and came back to my ensuite and bedroom windows got replaced for fixed windows. They said because my windows lead on to a fire escape.

My issue is if a fire happened out side her door she has no escape she's trapped inside,

The back and front of building has big communal areas for fire assembly points.

The window didn't open out it open and tilted inside

Thanks everyone great information

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121053306#Comment_121053306

They said because my windows lead on to a fire escape.

This may be pertinent information, let's see what the others say here.

steven1987

Few more pictures

Gumbo

Is this an apartment?

Escape from the apartment is into the protected entrance hall and then through the common lobby to the exit.

Bedrooms do not require the alternative window escape (think of people in an apartment 9 stories up!)

Opening out into a fire escape is a no no too. There’s even some reasonable call for those windows along the route to be fire rated.

muffler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121055041#Comment_121055041

When you mention 9 stories up of course fire escape window is useless but you have to think about rescue which is covered by regs.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121055225#Comment_121055225

Of course and depending on the strategy TGDB/5588, 9991 etc

The ground floor windows may never have been designed as escape windows.

steven1987

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121055041#Comment_121055041

This is a ground flooplr apartment what if a fire was outside my daughters bedroom door? What is she supposed to just wait in her room because she'll have no other way out!

Also the window was a tilt and open in window

steven1987

This is outside her door in to bedroon

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121055687#Comment_121055687

please tell me those doors have self closing mechanisms??

and where does that door to the RHS with teh fan over it lead to? bathroom?

rayjdav

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121055041#Comment_121055041

This is exactly what I was ready to reply with. TGD Part B Vol2 S.1.3.7 deals with dwelling houses and not apartments.

You should be looking for the Fire Cert Application and granted conditions and thats where you argument should be based around. If it does not comply with that then they have a case to answer. IMO.

Good design and regs do not necessarily always go hand in hand.

steven1987

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121055781#Comment_121055781

No door only has hinges with built in springs.

That other door is where washing machine and dryer is

Vent is basically for inside that washing storage

sydthebeat

"Hinges with built in springs"

So does it self close or not?

BryanF

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121050726#Comment_121050726

OP, search ‘planning enforcement form [enter city/county] ‘

BlackEdelweiss

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121055665#Comment_121055665

I think you are being a bit alarmist here.

You are in a ground floor apartment so thank all your lucky stars for that for a start. Be more concerned about your poor neighbors upstairs and how they might escape if there is a fire in your apartment. I would bet that the passive fire stopping in your building is either non-existent or incorrectly/inadequately installed.

How exactly would there be a fire outside your daughters bedroom door? Do you keep a lot of combustible materials and sources of ignition here? If so, stop doing this. I do notice a clothes rack in the photo in the hall, you are obstructing the means of escape from the bedrooms with this and adding a combustible fire load to the means of escape.

As per my previous comment, make sure your fire alarm system is maintained, batteries replaced, maintenance company doing their regular checks or whatever the requirements for the system installed in your apartment are. Keep your doors closed at night to help contain a fire and allow you and your family the time to escape. Keep your hallway free from unnecessary fire load. Bedroom windows are a last resort and not a primary means of escape. You mentioned that it opened in anyway so it was probably not suitable for climbing out anyway.

Without reading the fire strategy for your building nobody can comment definitively on what the requirements for your bedroom window are. As someone mentioned, there is good cause for it to be fire rated and unopenable and the vent closed up or have a fire damper installed.

The fire safety standards for residential buildings (not just in Ireland) is shocking so, as I said, thank your lucky stars you live on the ground floor and take responsibility for the fire safety of your own family (as mentioned above) and stop looking for a bogey man trying to trap your poor daughter in her burning bedroom.

steven1987

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121068827#Comment_121068827

Why bothering commenting at all really not helpful with the remarks concerning my daughter no need whatsoever

Upstairs has two fire exits

con747

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121068827#Comment_121068827

Lets hope you never have a child in a room on a ground floor with no means of escape because they don't have the know how to break through a double glazed window to escape.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121051563#Comment_121051563

This is incorrect.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121053306#Comment_121053306

That is likely why it had to be changed, as if there was a fire in the unit and the window was open it would impact the escape route. You keep referencing the management company. Are you a tenant or an owner?

You also asked every bedroom must have a window, the answer is no they do not. In general it's best practise. But in situations where its not required you need to look at the overall risks. An opening window here adds at least two risks;

The risk of fire spread to the escape route. There is an argument that the glass should be fire rated.
Risk of a child falling out of the window. Based on the photos, an opening window here is a very big risk that a child would fall out child would fall out. The fall is only ~1m, but it still needs to be considered as part of the risk.

Most likely the management company is correct and it is currently compliant with fire. However, that doesn't mean you can't beyond the minimum requirements. There may be a bigger concern that purge ventilation is missing. I'd lean on that aspect, and acknowledge and accept the risks above.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121124432#Comment_121124432

Its an apartment. The escape strategy is to the Protected Entrance Hall and into the Protected Corridor an out the Main entrance.

No apartment requires escape by smashing a window. No need for the Drama. Facts suffice.