Is there a Labour Party?

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121088000#Comment_121088000

As in my previous reply on this, she has no strong and active local party behind her and got booted out on count 1 in 2019 due to doing nothing and having no local base. She is coasting on a wave of support for the party name, nothing else. That also got her in 2014 before the tide briefly went out for SF in 2019.

Plenty of politicians get in based on party affiliation despite no other support, Cyprian Brady getting elected despite having a FPV that some randomer running as a joke could get before Berties transfers rained in on him is a notable case. This is another case.

The idea that SF are riding high due to having strong local parties is absolutely laughable. They are having severe issues finding local election candidates and are selecting absolute loopers out of desperation in areas they have TDs (Mayo). They are not strong on the ground, at all.

Goldengirl

Yes, that particular SF candidate didn't get elected.. In a working class neighbourhood.. In a rising SF vote.. Go figure!

Either very strong candidates in the other parties.. yes.. But the SF guy couldn't string two words together.

My point that @jmcc and the Archduke missed so spectacularly, was that we floating voters are actively seeking clever and quick candidates like the two SF stars I mentioned earlier, and if they want to run more candidates as Mary Lou said they did, where are more like those?

Or as Archduke and yourself implied we are somehow being snobbish wanting a cadidate who we can speak to, and we should vote for whatever poor soul is put up for election " for the sake of the party" regardless of whether they are able for it and regular public debate btw?!

Jrez thats some indictment!

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121087926#Comment_121087926

Jaysus. Paranoia.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121087701#Comment_121087701

I'm not bitter at all! I'm just fed up to the back teeth at the narrative that's fed - that the Labour party betrayed their roots, were all snouts in the trough and should be eliminated. The idea seems to be that if you keep repeating this, that it becomes fact. I watched the deliberate assassination of the reputations of Labour TDs in that post 2011 period and continuing through to present. This was/is the left eating the left and there are those who continue to justify a completely exaggerated narrative.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121087997#Comment_121087997

What exactly did Labour do last time they sat at a Government Cabinet Table??? Please substantiate that, give us detail.

As for Joan Burton, what policy did she pursue that sold out Labour voters?? Your comment is verging on misogynism.

Joan Burton afaik is from modest circumstances in Carlow, adopted into an ordinary working family in Dublin and improved her situation, studied commerce, joined & represented Labour to help the interests of her people. She was minister for social protection/ welfare at a very difficult time, when the state was recovering from a financial collapse. So what exactly is your beef with Joan Burton??

rock22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121088595#Comment_121088595

I don't think it is that (quote) "that the Labour party betrayed their roots, were all snouts in the trough and should be eliminated."

But there was a strategy discussed at that time, irrespective of some peoples failed memory, that Labour should sit out Government, consolidate left leaning TDs and their support, and transform that into a real alternative to endless right wing, or of you prefer, centre -right, parties. They choose to go into government instead.

Was it the right or wrong thing to do? That will always be a matter of perception and opinion. I think it was the wrong choice but , equally, i cannot predict what would have happened had they stayed out of Government. I like to think we would have ended up with a real left of centre party with the real possibility of being the larger party in a coalition government. But maybe that would not have happened.

What we do know is what did happen, the annihilation of the Labour party. At least in that , narrow , perspective, it was the wrong choice for the Labour party.

I also suspect that over time SF will transform into another "catch-all" party just as FF and FG have.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121089171#Comment_121089171

"But there was a strategy discussed at that time, irrespective of some peoples failed memory, that Labour should sit out Government, consolidate left leaning TDs and their support, and transform that into a real alternative to endless right wing, or of you prefer, centre -right, parties. They choose to go into government instead."

Just how valid was that strategy though? It's all very well to say there was a choice, when there really wasn't due to the circumstances. If you take out FF 20 seats, Labour 37 and SF 4 - you're left with FG needing at least 8 and more like 12 independents, all with their own agendas and ready to flake away at the hint of any blow back on them. The public would have looked askance at that and said 'why the f* aren't Labour in there? Isn't that why we voted for them?' So the strategy you outline was purely hypothetical.

Goldengirl

All I remember was people losing jobs right, left and centre and Joan was preoccupied with chasing dole scroungers and saving money, very vociferously at that time. There were genuine people in dire straits being made to go to in to inquisitions for whatever they needed and were entitled to after paying years of stamps and taxes.

People who had been self employed and their business gone to the wall in the crash with families to feed were given nothing for months. We had to bail out a family member on only my salary as a nurse with my oh made redundant also.

And through it all there was no compassion about her, very harsh.

I would have supported her as a successful woman, politician, ' standing up for herself ', etc but found her "I'm as hard as the next man" attitude, during what was an incredibly difficult time for everyone, grating in the extreme.

Itis no coincidence that Mario Rosenstock's skit of her screeching was so popular at the time.

I felt for her after the Water charges /Paul Murphy SUV barricade however .

Nobody no matter how unpopular, should have to go through that sort of thuggery and I will never forget his part in that horrendous event.

But don't try to revise history. She was a poor leader, very poor Minister for Social Welfare and had no idea how to debate or put her case in a civil manner.

Ivana Bacik is streets ahead but maybe too civil, too quiet.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121089344#Comment_121089344

It was an idea not really a strategy

z80CPU

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121038122#Comment_121038122

Labour lost its way many moons ago. For me it when Pat Rabbitte lost the rag against Pat Carey in prime time.

Especially Pat Rabbitte going ape$hit like this when the Troika were in Dublin .

Anyway, as a sort of epilogue for me, I was standing in O'Connell Street waiting to cross outside the GPO to the HAPPY RING HOUSE on the other side, and Pat Carey was there beside me. Diminutive and forgettable.

rock22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121089344#Comment_121089344

I was responding to your comment that there was a narrative to attack Labour TDs , the (quote) "the deliberate assassination of the reputations of Labour TDs in that post 2011 period and continuing through to present. This was/is the left eating the left and there are those who continue to justify a completely exaggerated narrative"

If FG could have formed a minority Government. Labour could have adopted a 'Tallaght Strategy' type arrangement, as could FF and others. It would have been a valid choice

Quote "Just how valid was that strategy though? It's all very well to say there was a choice, when there really wasn't due to the circumstances. If you take out FF 20 seats, Labour 37 and SF 4 - you're left with FG needing at least 8 and more like 12 independents, all with their own agendas and ready to flake away at the hint of any blow back on them. The public would have looked askance at that and said 'why the f* aren't Labour in there?"

So everyone had a choice, except Labour who, alone, had to go into Government? If you want to believe that, fine, but at the end of the day Labour, not FF, not Sf, not the independent, went into Government. I believed then, and I believe now, that they had a choice.

There was palpable anger at the Labour minister. Joan Burton being trapped in her car in Tallaght should not have happened. But that it did indicates the level of anger and betrayal felt by many people.

As I said in my post, maybe things would have worked out as bad for Labour no matter what they did. But many people, Labour supported and members, felt the choice they made at the time was the wrong one., that they threw away an opportunity to create a real eft in Irish politics.

satguy

These parties never learn,,

Back in early 2000's a vote for Lab ended up putting FG back in power. So at the next GE, Lab were punished.

At the last GE, a vote for FF just put FG back in power,, and that was after FF had kept FG in power for many years with a supply and demand agreement. So we might well see FF punished at the next GE.

Has the time come for us to give Mary Lou a look in ??????

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121089962#Comment_121089962

"If FG could have formed a minority Government."

If, if, if - that wasn't tenable though, was it? There were clearly going to be tough measures needed in order to put some order & confidence back into the state finances and reputation. A FG minority government propped up by a 'Tallaght Strategy' of Labour supporting them would have been tantamount to the same thing - they would have been held accountable by the other parties, media and the public when they supported such measures. It was a heads you win, tails I lose situation for Labour.

If other parties on the left were sympathetic to their position, well then maybe we'd be in a different boat now, FFs resurgence might have been limited and there could be a government of the left in place right now. But no, what did the other 'left' parties do - they engaged in destroying Labour and squabbling like piranhas over the entrails. But that's always been the way here, the split and infighting.

jmcc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121090464#Comment_121090464

How dare those Left wing parties destroy Labour. How dare they! Except that they didn't. The snouters in Labour eager for ministerial salaries and pensions destroyed Labour. They put their own greed above the interests of the Labour party. And when it came to Austerity, they were only following orders.

Labour had the chance to create a genuine Left/Right axis in Irish politics with Labour dominating the Left. It blew that chance. Now, SF seems to be adopting the strategy that Labour should have used and it has already forced FF and FG into government. So, will you still vote for Labour?

Regards...jmcc

satguy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121090687#Comment_121090687

Bang on ..

And those Labour Snouters still collect those big ministerial pensions to this day. FG said Joan could have an extra ministerial folder, if Labour agreed to cut the Lone Parents Allowance in half.

Ms Burton on Wednesday defended the cuts to the allowance, which she had last year promised not to proceed with without significant investment in childcare.

Geuze

It was correct to reduce the duration of OPFP.

No other country paid it for 18 years.

Some countries paid it for 4 months.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121090687#Comment_121090687

"The snouters in Labour eager for ministerial salaries and pensions destroyed Labour. They put their own greed above the interests of the Labour party."

That's a slur typical of what I've written about. Put flesh on that accusation, substantiate your claim that the the 'snouters in Labour (were) eager for ministerial salaries and pensions'. And that they 'put their own greed above the interests of the Labour party'.

Detail please. Who and how did they enrich themselves and what were their motives? Where did put their own greed above the needs of the party?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121090049#Comment_121090049

Maybe it's the voters that never learn?

How dare they vote for people who are actually prepared to go into government instead of sitting on the sidelines whinging.