Is there a Labour Party?

Strumms

7 TDs and 4 Senators

out of 160 TDs and 60 Senators.

So in total, 11 out of 220 seats.…5% across both houses…pathetic…

Bacik needs to be jettisoned..

been scuttled..

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121067562#Comment_121067562

Labour in the decades I've been about have never been part of any Big Three. At best they've been junior coalition partners.

What do you think Labour should have done in 2011? You surely can't forget that FF had their bums in the seat for many years before that and presided over the Celtic Tiger collapse. There had to be a credible government to take over and pick up the pieces. The Shinners got a piddly 4 seats in that election.

If Labour hadn't taken on the role as junior coalition partner in 2011, they would have been equally condemned. They were between a rock and a hard place with the IMF looking on. It's ridiculous to place all the blame for austerity on Labour, any sensible person can see that. The reason we have the SDs is that Roisín Shortall's nose got out of joint and off she went with a few others.

But what happens next election? FG are shot, been there too long now just like FF in 2011. FF & SF will be the bigger winners I reckon, all other parties will struggle and lose ground whilst Independents will gain. FF will pick up swing voters from FG, SF will attack and garner all the other left of centre parties. A lot of people, possibly myself too, will say a plague on all your houses and vote for any half decent independent and to hell with votes for the rest.

Not a pretty prospect but that's how it looks imho.

Murt10

Brendan Howlin TD completely stopped me ever voting for the Labour Party ever again. I had previously Labour in every election, since I first started voting a long time ago.

While in charge of the Dept of Public Expenditure, Howlin took a flame thrower to the terms and conditions all Civil Service staff were employed under.

What annoyed me in particular, was the annihilation of our sick leave entitlements. He literally cut the sick leave entitlements in half, saying that they were being abused by some.

Well, if there was abuse, and I didn't see it myself as the Department I worked in was very strict on S/L, then he should have tackled those abusing the system, and the Personnel Officers who were not policing it properly. Instead, he took the easy school teacher option of punishing the whole class when one or two children misbehaved.

Joan Burton, as Party Leader at the time, should have immediately slapped him down, and told him to get on with doing his job properly. If he wasn't capable of doing it, moved him out to where he could do less damage, rather than allow him free reign to do irreparable damage to the Party and to totally alienate their whole base.

Most civil servants I knew, like myself voted for Labour down through the years, as they felt that it was the only party was looking after their interest. Well, if a leading member of a party turns on them and launches a savage attack their own grass roots, the party would be foolish to expect the grass roots to ever vote for them ever again.

Nobody I know, and certainly not the unions, would have balked at sick leave regulations being fairly overhauled and properly enforced if that was not being done before, but at the stroke of a pen, cutting everyone's entitlement in half was lazy and incompetent not the right thing to do.

I'm sure at the time Howlin basked in the praise from his more right wing comrades in FG., and from the Independent group of newspapers, both of whom were always anti worker and anti civil service. But he was doing so much damage to his own electorate, I really was surprised he wasn't stopped.

Ministers and parties can do whatever they like to various other groups, the unemployed etc. It doesn't really make any difference to their vote. The overwhelming majority of these people don't vote, and those who do, are gullible enough to vote for the parties who paid lip service to their interest, while not doing anything at all for them at the same time. Turkeys voting for Christmas springs to mind.

But civil and public servants have something in common with another group of people - old age pensioners and farmers. They do vote in great numbers, and they have long memories. They know how the system works and in fact they regard it as their civic duty to vote in every election.

No wonder SF are doing so well in the polls. They're mopping up a lot of votes that previously would have gone to Labour.

I would previously never have considered a vote for SF, now I'm not so sure. I certainly won't vote for FG. FF drove the country off a cliff more than once. Labour as I explained, never again.

I'm running out of options.

jmcc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121068018#Comment_121068018

Labour was only ever the half party of Irish politics. The Big Three that emerged after 2013 were FF/FG/SF.

Labour needed to force FG and FF into working together as a Right of centre government. The Stickies pension tourists that ran Labour into the ground were too interested in getting their snouts in the trough to think strategically.

In the next GE, there is a very real possibilty of FF and FG winning far fewer seats than their votes would suggest. This would be because of the Fratricide Effect and the electorate thinking of FF and FG as much the same party. Without a joint candidate strategy and electoral pact, the transfers are going to knock out FF and FG candidates in later rounds when there would only be enough votes to get a single FF or FG candidate elected. That would allow candidates who were marginally ahead to win the seat without reaching the quota. It happened on a small scale in 2020 because FG screwed up its strategy. Labour had been an earlier victim of the transfers problem because it had been incredibly dependent on transfers from FF and FG. Once these dried up in 2016 and the loaned soft FF vote shifted back to FF, Labour was in trouble. FF's implosion in 2011 allowed Labour to pretend, for a while, that it was a major party. That ended in 2016 with one of the worst ever wipeouts for any party (37 seats in 2011 to 7 seats in 2016).

Despite all the talk about FF voters, FG voters, SF voters, Labour voters etc, the reality is that most of the Irish electorate are floating voters and do not support political parties.

Regards...jmcc

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121068316#Comment_121068316

"Labour needed to force FG and FF into working together as a Right of centre government."

But that was impossible was it not? How many seats did FF lose - c 50 from memory. They were annihilated in the 2011 election - 50 seats wiped out.

The electorate booted Bertie, Cowen and FF off the field. There would have been outrage if FF had got back in as a senior coalition partner.

It was unthinkable was it not? So what option did Labour really have in the national interest? It's all very well to talk about snouts in the trough but given the chance, I think Labour would have preferred to stay out.

chopperbyrne

I used to vote Labour in the mid to late 00's, but they lost my vote when they abandoned who they are supposed to represent, the labour force.

Unlike many, I didn't oppose water charges, but I most certainly opposed how they were attempted.

Labour sold their supporters down the river for a chance to be in a doomed government. Nice pensions for them, but **** the people.

Now they just represent the well off, and the NGO sector.

Social Democrats are slightly better, but still not a viable voting option.

jmcc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121069778#Comment_121069778

FG won 76 seats and FF won 20. The number needed for a majority was 84.

You have a much higher opinion of Labour than it deserves.

Regards...jmcc

satguy

Joan Burton finished them off when she was leader.

Ireland will be a better place if they stay in the gutter where Joan left them.

Honey50000

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058311133/is-there-a-labour-party

Needed for what water charges

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121069800#Comment_121069800

Junior coalition party - my bad. But regardless, it was unthinkable that having taken such a drubbing that FF were fit for government again.

So what were Labour to do in 2011? They had 37 seats. Were they supposed to wash their hands of any responsibility and let a few Independents prop up a FG government. At a time, when there was a very real need for political stability and to restore confidence in the finances of the state.

Labour were subsequently gutted by the Shinners and PBP and others on the left, a shower of **** mostly who would run from any responsibility in power at the time.

jmcc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121069853#Comment_121069853

If the independents got out of line, Labour could have ensured the continuity of the government by voting with it. FF would have lost more seats in 2016 and never regained the ones it lost. Labour would have become the major party of the Left and SF would never have gained seats. #and FG would have taken a bigger hit in 2016.

But that would have required the capability for strategic thought and ruthlessness. All Labour had was a bunch of greedy snouters chasing ministerial salaries and pensions. They destroyed Labour (37 seats to 7). That could have been FF's fate if Labour had had a real Labour leader rather than Frankfurt Gilmore the Stickie. Frankfurt's way or Labour's way? History answered that question as the electorate imposed the Austerity of the ballot box on Labour.

Regards...jmcc

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121066962#Comment_121066962

I have always thought that re some of this so called "competition" ... where are the brown envelopes going and why do I have to dedicate so much more of my time comparing "deals".... that looks increasingly like white collar crime on a grand scale.....one would almost admire it if one didn't have to keep stumping up.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121070003#Comment_121070003

You could easily turn the argument around and say that the easy approach was to stay in opposition. It is far easier money and work.

The govt of 2011 were always on a hiding to nothing given the terms of the bailouts and our inability to access credit markets. Trying to rail against that was attempted by Greece and we all see how that worked.

Could they have done better? Almost certainly. But it is utterly asinine to claim that going into government was viewed as the easy way to make a good living. Those who live in perpetual opposition are far better at that.

dublincc2

Labour is dead. It’s run in the background by old school stickies with a half-Czech misandrist as its public face. I don’t support any of the SD’s policies but they are a more legitimate party and Cairns a more respectable leader.

dublincc2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121066504#Comment_121066504

You think a united Ireland is going to destroy Ireland? It is literally going to create Ireland.

Grayson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121067659#Comment_121067659

I'm assuming they still stand for the same things as 20 years ago. And that would be the only way I'd have known.

It's a pity, we need a good centre left party and at the moment the closest is SF. I've been living in Germany for the last two years but before that I was in the Kildare north constituency so I would have had a Soc Dem TD. But most places don't have that option.

I really don't like SF at all. Besides the past links to violence I don't like their populism. A good example would be their green policies. They don't really have any. Whenever there's a news story about data centres they jump out and say "data centers bad" and then retreat again. They have no proper policies on agriculture. They say what they feel will get them votes and avoid committing to anything that would lose them votes. So there's some areas of policy that are just vague blobs.

Edit: And to bring it back on point. I have absolutely no idea what labours policies are on anything. I'm assuming they want more houses but that's about it.

rock22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121069853#Comment_121069853

And yet, the decision of labour to coalesce with a right of centre FG government re ally spelled the end of the Labour party.

It has always been a problem for Labour, going back to the 50's to either prop up FG or stay in opposition. When the only two options on the table was a FF government or FG coalition, then it was easy to see why Labour would use its' seats to remove FF. The alternative was perpetual FF government.

But in 2011, there was a real feeling tat a left coalition could form the opposition and hold the centre right to account. And that depended on Labour being the leader of the opposition. And they choose instead to go into government with FG. They had a choice. FG could have continued as a minority government with the tacit support of FF even if there was no coalition.

It didn't help, that Labour tried to push forward an new tax, the water charges, on working people who just couldn't afford anymore bills. Whatever the right or wrongs of water charges, bringing it in then, purely as a fiscal measure, was the wrong policy at the wrong time. Labour voters expected Labour to protect them from that type of tax . Instead they championed the charges.

Previously, the support Labour lost after a period in coalition was regained over the subsequent years, because left leaning voters had no where else to go. But SF are now a potential government party and so they will hoover up the left vote. For many people it is worth taking a chance on SF as they have lost faith in the other parties, Labour especially.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121070596#Comment_121070596

"But in 2011, there was a real feeling tat a left coalition could form the opposition and hold the centre right to account. And that depended on Labour being the leader of the opposition. And they choose instead to go into government with FG. "

I must be stupid or missing something? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Irish_general_election

Labour had 37 seats after the 2011 general election, they needed 84. That's a gap of 43 seats - how the hell were they going to cobble together a coalition of the left?? FG/FF had 96 seats between them, that leaves 33 including several complete loo laas of TDs.

This idea that Labour had some real choice after the 2011 election is a myth made up and perpetuated by those that sought to cannibalise it's vote. They couldn't form a government with FF involved, they couldn't form a coalition of the left. They could have stayed out and supported a minority FG government but the electorate and other parties would have mercilessly criticised them for this, since the countries finances were in a poor state. Stability was needed.

Like the SDLP up north, Labour did the necessary and were thrown under a bus by those seeking to trample them and steal their base vote.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121070543#Comment_121070543

Years ago when SF was focused on 'other things', Green issues were not really a thing. At least you could say that Labour had the strong attachment to the trade unions etc.

But when I think of it the problem with Labour is that they never managed to get into the psyche of the Irish people to get enough votes unless as other posters said the FF or FG vote collapsed. I think that all started in the 1918 election when they stood aside for Sinn Fein.

Then you had the bit of the cross over much in the 1970's later Sinn Fein - Workers Party - Democratic Left and the Labour merge. Would that even happen now?

Would the Labour Party - Sinn Fein and the Social Democrats ever merge? It would have to be called Sinn Fein. I doubt it would ever happen any time soon - maybe in 30 years at a push. Because Sinn Fein have somehow managed to tap into the working vote while also attracting some younger vote elsewhere with short memories. And there are currently too many in Sinn Fein with a certain history for that to be palatable. I think that is the sole reason preventing the merge.

Labour seem to have really missed the boat (when they could have been the third choice and maybe even the second party in Ireland) now they are not even a junior party they are on the periphery of Irish politics basically where SF were without all the 'edgy history'.

The Labour branding always seemed wrong it never tapped into what the Irish people wanted. then when they did go into government in coalition they were viewed as scapegoats or sell outs. Maybe Labour never really had a chance in the first place?

I mean if it looks like that Fine Gael and Fine Fail could conceivably merge in the future years and Labour STILL not able to find a niche in the minds of the Irish electorate it does not say much. I think it comes down to the fact that the people in Labour are/were too 'nice' that is my theory on it.

Look at how ruthless SF and PBP were with Joan Burton? They destroyed the woman. It did not matter that she had more working class credentials than Mary Lou or Richard Boyd Barrett. Somehow despite their leafy suburb rearing and rounded South Dublin vowels, both of them managed to paint Joan Burton as part of the establishment and against the common man. Despite the fact that water charges are common not only in most countries in the world - but in rural Ireland. But it just showed how the Sinn Fein and PBP aggression paid off.

Madness really. It also shows how important branding is. There needs to be a cause a massive gesture - something populist to kick it off.

Has Labour ever had a strong brand? Maybe Dick Spring was arguably Labour's most charismatic leader/electable person in modern times but he was seen as too centrist by the electorate, when he tried to move the party in that direction.

Maybe the Labour leader before Dick Spring sums Labour up - Michael O'Leary who jumped ship to Fine Gael. He initially wanted to make Labour left leaning - suddenly joined Fine Gael. Then at the end he was considering joining the Progressive Democrats!!!

Is there any courage of convictions in Labour at all? Anything the electorate can get behind with them. I don't think think there is. There is nothing. They seem like 'nice' people though.

But how can Ivana Bacik compete with the vociferous and cankerous Richard Boyd Barrett. Who has the anti-establishment left rhetoric off to a tee. And Mary Lou who who somehow has also managed to style herself as anti- establishment, plus has the Sinn Fein populist brand. Bacik has no hope.

Despite Bacik's legal background and obvious intelligence, if he was in a debate with Mary Lou and Richard Boyd Barrett she would finish a distance third I think. Not a hope. It would lose her even more votes and even more seats.

That is before you would even consider Bacik in a debate with Michael Martin and Leo Varadkar. She would lose that as well I would say.

jmcc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121071095#Comment_121071095

Read it again. Rock22 is correct. Labour didn't need to go into government with FG to become leader of the opposition. As the leader of the opposition it had the opportunity to hold FG (and FF) to account and would have eventually become the main Left of centre(ish) party with FF and FG essentially becoming the Right of centre party in a genuine Left/Right axis in Irish politics. But Labour missed the opportunity because mercs, percs and ministerial salaries and pensions were on offer.

SF won the same number of seats as FF in the 2020 GE. (The extra seat that FF had was from the CC which was not an elected seat). SF is now the leader of the opposition and the most popular party according to the opinion polls. Labour needed to position itself, in 2011, in such a manner so that most of the Austerity backlash would have targeted FG and FF in subsequent GEs. But the people in FG were clever. They set Labour up for the fall. It was a trap into which the gombeens in Labour ran into because those ministerial salaries and pensions were used as bait. And what's Labour now? The seven political dwarves.

Regards...jmcc

Grayson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121071974#Comment_121071974

One of my favorite things is going to the irish labour party twitter account and lightly troll brits who are complaining and them and don't realise @labour is an irish party. I remember one who was complaining about trans people and said she stuck with labour even though she was jewish.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121071961#Comment_121071961

"Read it again. Rock22 is correct. Labour didn't need to go into government with FG to become leader of the opposition. As the leader of the opposition it had the opportunity to hold FG (and FF) to account and would have eventually become the main Left of centre(ish) party with FF and FG essentially becoming the Right of centre party in a genuine Left/Right axis in Irish politics. But Labour missed the opportunity because mercs, percs and ministerial salaries and pensions were on offer."

Ah come on, you're stretching incredulity here. Kindly explain just how Labour could 'hold FG (and FF) to account' after the 2011 election. How?

Fianna Fail were in the gutter, many predicted their demise there and then. There was no way at all that they were acceptable to the public as government partners. They were TOXIC.

So what could Labour do to help stability?

They had three choices

1) bite the bullet and go in as junior partner to FG

2) support a FG minority administration

3) withhold all support and force another election.

If they opted for 2) or 3) Labour would have been rounded on by all the other parties, the media, business and the public.

I get that you're no fan of Labour but please stop trying to nail the ills of Ireland in those times on one minority party.

Sleepy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121070313#Comment_121070313

Yes, it would be economic suicide for the Republic (which is why it's unlikely to pass a public vote here) and social suicide for Northern Ireland (mass unemployment, reigniting of sectarian violence etc.)

Goldengirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121066517#Comment_121066517

I know . Agree .Even in rural areas people were empowered by the Labour movement and the unions . The 1920s there were strikes and lockdowns all over the country, throwing off the yoke of British landlord industrialists and landowners .

The groups were called Soviets after the Russian Revolutionaries of 1916 .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_soviets

Ireland has a very strong history of Labour politics and while SinnFéin are gaining from them in cities , people in the South and South East of the country have a strong tradition of voting Labour. ...Sean Tracey, Leader of the Labour Party and former Ceann Comhairle , from Clonmel Co Tipperary , and Brendan Corish former Tánaiste and senior Minister, from Wexford .

People from there will vote labour before Sinn Féin , or WUA .

It might be possible if all the left leaning independents unjted with SD and Labour to form some sort of cohesive grouping, that might hold the balance of power with a bigger party .

It would be a shame if Labour did go under in this time of rising prices, lack of affordable housing ,and all the pressures on the working poor and middle classes . This should be a time that they could get their base back , but unfortunately they have forgotten who that is .

Goldengirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121066581#Comment_121066581

Ireland had its strikes and backlash before England , in 1920 / 1921 .

The British working class realised they were being taken for fools when they came back from the war and were barely managing to feed their families after they had fought for King and country. Their great strike was in 1926 .

Goldengirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121067914#Comment_121067914

Its not just down to Bacik.

Labour with Spring , and Burton lost their way government big time and Gilmore's foot in mouth finished them off.

Furze99

Well I'll see if they're running anyone here again next election and what their policies are. Of the various parties, still one of the few choices. That and like minded independents.

Perversely, though I've never voted FF, I could throw their local TD a vote this time. As a bulwark against SF increasing.

The rest can go swing.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121068316#Comment_121068316

Labour needed to force FG and FF into working together as a Right of centre government. The Stickies pension tourists that ran Labour into the ground were too interested in getting their snouts in the trough to think strategically.

I've read some classic pie-in-the-sky commentary over the years on here but this one is truly a new one.

Now, how in God's earth could Labour have forced a merge of FF and FG in 2011 is beyond me, and belongs to the 'crackpot' realm of fantasy lovers.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121069800#Comment_121069800

Can you show me ANYONE at the time who wanted or advocated for an FG and FF government in 2011?

Even the lunatics on the sidelines would never have dreamt up that one at the time, and why oh why would FG at the time give power BACK to FF post what happened in 2008? It would never have happened and even talking about it now as a serious option stikes me as rather odd.

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121057950#Comment_121057950

Senator Keogan is not "far right scum".

That is an ad hominem response.

From what I have heard from her, the majority of the population would agree with most of her policy positions.

I suspect it is reasonable to call her centre-right.