Is there a Labour Party?

Ramasun

There should be, it's needed.

You wouldn't know it existed in Ireland these days.

ancapailldorcha

Yes.

https://labour.ie/

Feisar

Hopefully. There's no one else I can vote for.

Sleepy

The closest thing we have is the Social Democrats.

Our traditional Labour party has lost it's way, is lead by a misandrist and as such probably needs a rebrand since they no longer respect, never mind represent, the working man.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058311133/is-there-a-labour-party

I think that's largely embedded in Irish history, at least what the geography of the Republic of Ireland is concerned.

The two parties FF and FG are basically out of a historic context pro-treaty and anti-treaty.

SF is sort of on the left, small Irish on their knees and rising against the English, - also a bit historic.

A real labour movement never existed in what is now the Republic of Ireland, as there never really was an industrial revolution, no classical workers or labourers or big scale factories like in other countries, France, Germany or the UK. Historically the Republic was too agricultural dominated for a labour party to develop.

A lot of current jobs and industries in the Republic of Ireland are by foreign investors, like pharmaceutical or the whole IT sector, foreign dominated, often US Americans, not liking labour movements and trade unions....

The Labour Party died with Connolly.

gormdubhgorm

Nope - it has been long dying the slow decline started when they stopped wearing ties and moving away from the beards which the Trade Union leaders were once so fond of, before the word hipster was ever heard.

Ivana Bacik the airy fairy academic with all the charisma of a of a concrete slab was the death knell of the Labour Party all together. Then the yahoo 'student Union type politics' PBP jumped in to fill some of the void. But few take them seriously.

The social democrats has tried to be a Labour Party for the middle classes, but the electorate do not like the 'brand'. Sinn Fein are now trying to do what Labour did in the 90's go populist. Lose the ties but leave the top button open, and aim for the women's vote, as well as the working class

But the advantage SF has over Labour is that SF is on a 'crusade' so they can get away with a lot of stuff that a normal party would not. The Labour Party has long being a directionless dead party with poor leadership. The last decent leader Labour had was Joan Burton. But SF and PBP did a political hatchet job on her from which she never recovered.

Strumms

They’ve had a series of uninspiring, unsuccessful, ineffectual leaders and now here is another, Bacik.. 😵

country is crying out for a decent, well led, spirited, relatable, intelligent and effectual centre left party.

just had a gander at Ivanas Twitter and man, it’s depressing, mostly PR lip service… little of any substance just PR opportunities.

otmmyboy2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121038085#Comment_121038085

There is this lot who have decided to run candidates:

https://www.farmersalliance.ie/

I'd be interested to read their manifesto when it is available.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121057935#Comment_121057935

Their website has links to Gript. Their twitter account following a lot of far right nutjobs like Aisling O'Loughin, Sharon Keoghan, Irish Enquiry, Gript, Lawyers for justice. Just another group of far right scum so.

MFPM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121038122#Comment_121038122

There's very little difference between the SDs and Labour they're just not as tainted by sell out as the LP but give them time!

Sleepy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121057960#Comment_121057960

Probably not and the sooner they merge the better, the Left needs more cohesion. I'll vote for Labour again I'm sure but not while Bacik is at the helm.

jmcc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121066402#Comment_121066402

Labour is on the way to being eradicated in the next GE and needs the SocDem votes to survive. The SocDems are their own party and don't seem interested into bailing out Bacik and her gang. The merger idea keeps getting pushed by Labour supporters in the media. The only thing that Labour has going for it is that it has some Local Government seats but if those numbers collapse in the next Local Elections then Labour might as well disband as a party.

Regards...jmcc

Sleepy

I don't particularly care whether the SD's merge back into Labour or former Labour members join the SD's (or a fully rebranded party). I'd like to see a cohesive and sane party on the left of Irish politics (I don't consider Sinn Fein to be genuinely of the left, more populists wearing that particular coat to further their goal of destroying our country through unification with Northern Ireland).

CrookedJack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121038996#Comment_121038996

Wow, this is a crazy read of Irish history. Ireland did have an industrial revolution, it also had a labour movement. Have you not heard of Jim Larkin and the Dublin lock-outs or James Connoly?

I can only assume you're from a very rural area and have no idea that there are, and always have been, many industrial parts of the country.

Kermit.de.frog

I'd have thought Fianna Fàil traditionally would be the defacto Labour Party in Ireland given it's policy legacies which is why the Labour Party (aside from briefly) has always struggled to gain much traction.

I don't think the Irish Labour Party has a viable long term future. It's too squeezed and it's too crowded in the left of center/center political spectrum in Ireland. Also Ireland doesn't really do left-wing politics anyway. Rather all parties on the so-called "left" in Ireland are actually just populist.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121066517#Comment_121066517

Rural Ireland was also very well organised in agricultural trade unions and the Labour Party actually had a lot of support in rural Ireland

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121066517#Comment_121066517

I am aware of Larkin and Connoly, however, there was never an industrial revolution in the Republic of Ireland the likes of the UK, or Belfast for that matter. Back then, the left, was mainly against the English, but not against industrialists exploiting poor workers.

The Republic of Ireland in the early years was still rather agricultural, thus a real labour movement never developed. Politics back then, was too much pro treaty and anti treaty focused, whilst emmigration still continued, if not the the US, then to the UK.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121066581#Comment_121066581

Ye wha? Connolly and Larkin and the Irish trade union movement never stood industrialists exploiting poor workers?

Seriously?

The Labour party lost their way, they neglected the working class completely and they went in heavy behind the welfare class. I think few people forget that Pat Rabbitte was in favour of the introduction of property taxes and USC.

They should be campaigning for pay increases, workers rights and the supporting unions instead they are focused on social welfare increases paid for by increased taxation on the working class. Their current policies make them an irrelevant party not worth a vote.

CrookedJack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121066581#Comment_121066581

Firstly you were talking about "What would become the Republic" Now you're talking about the republic and pro/anti-treaty sides? So the civil war and its aftermath? which was long before the Republic came into being. It'd be easier if you would actually just say the time period you refer to when you say there was no industrial revolution or labour movement.

I think your grasp of Irish history is hazy at best, but I'll give you some hints. The republic came into being in 1949. The civil war was 1922-23. The Industrial Revolution happened in the East and Northeast in the 19th century, long before partition.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121066574#Comment_121066574

This is true and the Agri-Cooperatives have a large place in the Irish labour context.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121066464#Comment_121066464

Oh I don't know if there's much difference really between Labour and the SDs, sure the latter are just largely a split from Labour. Labour Party has tradition behind it, whilst the SDs are shinier and newer. I'm not sure either really have a future at the moment, even though that's where my vote would normally trend towards.

Sinn Féin have set about ruthlessly hoovering up the 'left' vote in the Republic, by all means fair & foul. Labour, SDs, PBP and any others are all targets to SF and they know it. Which is why some grand coalition of the 'left' is laughable. No love lost at all between them.

Danzy

Labour mostly exist on paper, the stronger branches are built around family loyalty and personal cliques.

You see more members who have 60 years of membership than under 60 years of age.

jmcc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121066664#Comment_121066664

WARNING: Strong message follows. Labourites should put down their lattes now. :)

There is a difference. Labour appeals to the Irish Times reading old student union/teacher radicals and most of Labour's current TDs are teachers. The SocDems are far more complex and they have younger supporter demographics. That's why they always do well in the Sindo/Ireland Thinks and RedC opinion polls because those demographics have no problems with online polling. Parties with older supporter demographics do have problems and the FF percentages in the Sunday Times/B&A polls are very different because it uses face to face polling.

What's left of the Labour party abandoned the Left in Ireland and it is now a more Right wing party with the veneer of politically correct policies. Labour, along with FG, gleefully imposed Austerity and tried to bring in the Water Tax scam.

In its attempted move up-market by the ex-student union radicals, Labour abandoned its strong Trade Union representation and roots. The takeover of the party by the Stickies (Sinn Fein/Workers Party/Democratic Left/etc) really destroyed it.

When Labour abandoned the Left and the Trade Unions, SF moved in. When FF, under the wannabe FGer Martin, abandoned the centre of the political spectrum, SF moved in there too and SF is a centrist party. Labour has more in common with FG than with the few remaining parties on the Left of the spectrum.

Labour has suffered from a string of leaders who all made the wrong decision when it came to the crunch. Had Labour been led by a genuine leader rather than the Stickie Frankfurt Gilmore and it stayed out of government in 2011, Labour would probably have the same level of support as SF has now and the rise of SF would not have happened.

Gilmore was replaced by the equally useless iPhone Joan Burton who thought that the opening of a food bank was a photo opportunity. (That was horrifyingly disconnected from reality in a Marie Antoinette manner.) She was replaced by Brendan Howlin who had to be crowned leader without an election. He was replaced by Alan Kelly. He had worked hard to introduce the Water Tax scam but was probably the best of a bad bunch. As soon as Bacik was elected, it was certain that he'd be replaced. Now, Labour has got the right kind of "leader" for the pseudo-intellectual Irish Times reading types who still vote for Labour.

The problem is that the Irish Times daily sales figures were heading for 50K before Covid and Labour's support has been flatlined since the last GE. (Labour only got 95,588 votes in 2020.) At some stage, they are going to synchronise. The Labour resurrection expected by the Labour supporters in the media after Higgins was installed for a second term (he was the FF/FG/Lab candidate who claimed, in 2011, that he'd be a one term president) didn't happen and SF carried out a very important move to the centre when Mary Lou McDonald became leader.

Unfortunately for the Labour supporters in the media and the Labour management, the threat from a centrist SF didn't even show up on their radar. There was a demand for a broadly centrist party with some Left wing overtones (think old FF) and SF met it. It could have been Labour if it was run by people with a clue. Instead, Labour is run by a bunch of people who think that they should be the ones to tell voters what to think. That went down so well with the electorate that Labour lost its speaking rights in the Dail in 2020 because it only won 6 seats when speaking rights require a minimum of seven seats.

The virtue signalling crap from Labour doesn't matter when people are wondering how they will pay the back to school bills for their kids and the energy bills. (The high energy bills were as much the product of the introduction of FF "competition" into a market where Ireland had one of the lowest energy costs in Europe rather than the effect of the war in Ukraine.)

The current bunch of Labourites are the very people about which Connolly warned.

Regards...jmcc

tesla_newbie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121066615#Comment_121066615

Labour are the party of public sector unions, media , academia and NGO czars , they are a thoroughly middle class party , the party of official Ireland ( chattering classes )

Sinn Fein and to a lesser degree PBP are the go to party for welfare lifers

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121066962#Comment_121066962

"The virtue signalling crap from Labour doesn't matter when people are wondering how they will pay the back to school bills for their kids and the energy bills."

"What's left of the Labour party abandoned the Left in Ireland and it is now a more Right wing party with the veneer of politically correct policies. Labour, along with FG, gleefully imposed Austerity and tried to bring in the Water Tax scam."

That's all fine & dandy but please explain why the Labour Party with it's modest membership and representation should be the saviour of Ireland and responsible for curing the profligacy of FF/FG governments? What makes them special for singling out as responsible?

As for water charges, a user based consumption tax for water/ sewage is one of the few taxes proposed in recent decades that made logical sense. Lots of people understood this in principle, that it was badly introduced by that ignorant buffoon in FG, hardly lessens the argument then & now. It's plainly ridiculous that those on public water & sewage should use/ dispose of as much as they want, without a care in the world for the costs of providing this. This progressive charge is not gone and will come back, out of necessity if nothing else.

And I see not a whit of difference between Labour and the SDs in their current forms & personnel.

Grayson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121039049#Comment_121039049

There's two big things that SF have over labour and the soc dems. First is name recognition (not so much with labour, but definitely with the soc dems). the second is money. Neither party could field the list of candidates that SF does. they lack either grassroot organisations or the money.

It's a pity. labour would get a preference vote from me but at the moment they don't seem to any vision or message about how they want the country to be.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121066615#Comment_121066615

As goes property taxation - this is the only country in Europe where left wing parties are opposed to it, and right wing parties in favour of it. Baffling.

When you hear of "wealth taxes" being proposed by parties, remember that the bulk of most peoples wealth is any residential property they own. Don't expect it to be magically exempt - it will be a property tax just with a different name.

jmcc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121067441#Comment_121067441

Labour was the half-party of Irish politics that enabled FF and FG. They sold out their supporters and the most vulnerable in society for the price of a few ministerial salaries and pensions.

Labour could have stayed out of government in 2011 instead of becoming more FG than FG itself.

The dominant political model started to shift in 2013 from being a two and a half party model to being a Big Three model where no two of the Big Three would have enough seats to form a government. The 2015 Local Elections and Euros showed that Labour had become irrelevant. (One of the Labour Ireland South candidates pleaded with Gilmore to stay away from her campaign.) By 2016, the Big Three model was firmly established. The problem was that Labour management and their supporters in the media didn't understand what happened. Its supporters in the media, particularly in RTE, still treated Labour as a major party on a level with FF/FG/SF.

Irish Water would probably have been privatised if FG/Lab had gotten away with their plan.

Regards...jmcc

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121067526#Comment_121067526

Yeah voting for Labour now is almost a 'wasted vote' - I would have voted for them in the past. But now I find myself looking for alternatives all the time, especially when there is no longer any viable independent in my consistency.

Good points on the brand, and the money. If you were to ask me what Labour stood for now, I would be struggling to tell you. The other main parties you would have a fair idea where they stand on issues - what their direction is etc.

BlueSkyDreams

Are laboutmr not just the same as FF or FG? Essentially centre left.

I dont seeanything to distinguish them.

Strumms

7 TDs and 4 Senators

out of 160 TDs and 60 Senators.

So in total, 11 out of 220 seats.…5% across both houses…pathetic…

Bacik needs to be jettisoned..

been scuttled..

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121067562#Comment_121067562

Labour in the decades I've been about have never been part of any Big Three. At best they've been junior coalition partners.

What do you think Labour should have done in 2011? You surely can't forget that FF had their bums in the seat for many years before that and presided over the Celtic Tiger collapse. There had to be a credible government to take over and pick up the pieces. The Shinners got a piddly 4 seats in that election.

If Labour hadn't taken on the role as junior coalition partner in 2011, they would have been equally condemned. They were between a rock and a hard place with the IMF looking on. It's ridiculous to place all the blame for austerity on Labour, any sensible person can see that. The reason we have the SDs is that Roisín Shortall's nose got out of joint and off she went with a few others.

But what happens next election? FG are shot, been there too long now just like FF in 2011. FF & SF will be the bigger winners I reckon, all other parties will struggle and lose ground whilst Independents will gain. FF will pick up swing voters from FG, SF will attack and garner all the other left of centre parties. A lot of people, possibly myself too, will say a plague on all your houses and vote for any half decent independent and to hell with votes for the rest.

Not a pretty prospect but that's how it looks imho.

Murt10

Brendan Howlin TD completely stopped me ever voting for the Labour Party ever again. I had previously Labour in every election, since I first started voting a long time ago.

While in charge of the Dept of Public Expenditure, Howlin took a flame thrower to the terms and conditions all Civil Service staff were employed under.

What annoyed me in particular, was the annihilation of our sick leave entitlements. He literally cut the sick leave entitlements in half, saying that they were being abused by some.

Well, if there was abuse, and I didn't see it myself as the Department I worked in was very strict on S/L, then he should have tackled those abusing the system, and the Personnel Officers who were not policing it properly. Instead, he took the easy school teacher option of punishing the whole class when one or two children misbehaved.

Joan Burton, as Party Leader at the time, should have immediately slapped him down, and told him to get on with doing his job properly. If he wasn't capable of doing it, moved him out to where he could do less damage, rather than allow him free reign to do irreparable damage to the Party and to totally alienate their whole base.

Most civil servants I knew, like myself voted for Labour down through the years, as they felt that it was the only party was looking after their interest. Well, if a leading member of a party turns on them and launches a savage attack their own grass roots, the party would be foolish to expect the grass roots to ever vote for them ever again.

Nobody I know, and certainly not the unions, would have balked at sick leave regulations being fairly overhauled and properly enforced if that was not being done before, but at the stroke of a pen, cutting everyone's entitlement in half was lazy and incompetent not the right thing to do.

I'm sure at the time Howlin basked in the praise from his more right wing comrades in FG., and from the Independent group of newspapers, both of whom were always anti worker and anti civil service. But he was doing so much damage to his own electorate, I really was surprised he wasn't stopped.

Ministers and parties can do whatever they like to various other groups, the unemployed etc. It doesn't really make any difference to their vote. The overwhelming majority of these people don't vote, and those who do, are gullible enough to vote for the parties who paid lip service to their interest, while not doing anything at all for them at the same time. Turkeys voting for Christmas springs to mind.

But civil and public servants have something in common with another group of people - old age pensioners and farmers. They do vote in great numbers, and they have long memories. They know how the system works and in fact they regard it as their civic duty to vote in every election.

No wonder SF are doing so well in the polls. They're mopping up a lot of votes that previously would have gone to Labour.

I would previously never have considered a vote for SF, now I'm not so sure. I certainly won't vote for FG. FF drove the country off a cliff more than once. Labour as I explained, never again.

I'm running out of options.

jmcc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121068018#Comment_121068018

Labour was only ever the half party of Irish politics. The Big Three that emerged after 2013 were FF/FG/SF.

Labour needed to force FG and FF into working together as a Right of centre government. The Stickies pension tourists that ran Labour into the ground were too interested in getting their snouts in the trough to think strategically.

In the next GE, there is a very real possibilty of FF and FG winning far fewer seats than their votes would suggest. This would be because of the Fratricide Effect and the electorate thinking of FF and FG as much the same party. Without a joint candidate strategy and electoral pact, the transfers are going to knock out FF and FG candidates in later rounds when there would only be enough votes to get a single FF or FG candidate elected. That would allow candidates who were marginally ahead to win the seat without reaching the quota. It happened on a small scale in 2020 because FG screwed up its strategy. Labour had been an earlier victim of the transfers problem because it had been incredibly dependent on transfers from FF and FG. Once these dried up in 2016 and the loaned soft FF vote shifted back to FF, Labour was in trouble. FF's implosion in 2011 allowed Labour to pretend, for a while, that it was a major party. That ended in 2016 with one of the worst ever wipeouts for any party (37 seats in 2011 to 7 seats in 2016).

Despite all the talk about FF voters, FG voters, SF voters, Labour voters etc, the reality is that most of the Irish electorate are floating voters and do not support political parties.

Regards...jmcc

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121068316#Comment_121068316

"Labour needed to force FG and FF into working together as a Right of centre government."

But that was impossible was it not? How many seats did FF lose - c 50 from memory. They were annihilated in the 2011 election - 50 seats wiped out.

The electorate booted Bertie, Cowen and FF off the field. There would have been outrage if FF had got back in as a senior coalition partner.

It was unthinkable was it not? So what option did Labour really have in the national interest? It's all very well to talk about snouts in the trough but given the chance, I think Labour would have preferred to stay out.

chopperbyrne

I used to vote Labour in the mid to late 00's, but they lost my vote when they abandoned who they are supposed to represent, the labour force.

Unlike many, I didn't oppose water charges, but I most certainly opposed how they were attempted.

Labour sold their supporters down the river for a chance to be in a doomed government. Nice pensions for them, but **** the people.

Now they just represent the well off, and the NGO sector.

Social Democrats are slightly better, but still not a viable voting option.

jmcc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121069778#Comment_121069778

FG won 76 seats and FF won 20. The number needed for a majority was 84.

You have a much higher opinion of Labour than it deserves.

Regards...jmcc

satguy

Joan Burton finished them off when she was leader.

Ireland will be a better place if they stay in the gutter where Joan left them.

Honey50000

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058311133/is-there-a-labour-party

Needed for what water charges

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121069800#Comment_121069800

Junior coalition party - my bad. But regardless, it was unthinkable that having taken such a drubbing that FF were fit for government again.

So what were Labour to do in 2011? They had 37 seats. Were they supposed to wash their hands of any responsibility and let a few Independents prop up a FG government. At a time, when there was a very real need for political stability and to restore confidence in the finances of the state.

Labour were subsequently gutted by the Shinners and PBP and others on the left, a shower of **** mostly who would run from any responsibility in power at the time.

jmcc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121069853#Comment_121069853

If the independents got out of line, Labour could have ensured the continuity of the government by voting with it. FF would have lost more seats in 2016 and never regained the ones it lost. Labour would have become the major party of the Left and SF would never have gained seats. #and FG would have taken a bigger hit in 2016.

But that would have required the capability for strategic thought and ruthlessness. All Labour had was a bunch of greedy snouters chasing ministerial salaries and pensions. They destroyed Labour (37 seats to 7). That could have been FF's fate if Labour had had a real Labour leader rather than Frankfurt Gilmore the Stickie. Frankfurt's way or Labour's way? History answered that question as the electorate imposed the Austerity of the ballot box on Labour.

Regards...jmcc

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121066962#Comment_121066962

I have always thought that re some of this so called "competition" ... where are the brown envelopes going and why do I have to dedicate so much more of my time comparing "deals".... that looks increasingly like white collar crime on a grand scale.....one would almost admire it if one didn't have to keep stumping up.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121070003#Comment_121070003

You could easily turn the argument around and say that the easy approach was to stay in opposition. It is far easier money and work.

The govt of 2011 were always on a hiding to nothing given the terms of the bailouts and our inability to access credit markets. Trying to rail against that was attempted by Greece and we all see how that worked.

Could they have done better? Almost certainly. But it is utterly asinine to claim that going into government was viewed as the easy way to make a good living. Those who live in perpetual opposition are far better at that.

dublincc2

Labour is dead. It’s run in the background by old school stickies with a half-Czech misandrist as its public face. I don’t support any of the SD’s policies but they are a more legitimate party and Cairns a more respectable leader.

dublincc2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121066504#Comment_121066504

You think a united Ireland is going to destroy Ireland? It is literally going to create Ireland.

Grayson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121067659#Comment_121067659

I'm assuming they still stand for the same things as 20 years ago. And that would be the only way I'd have known.

It's a pity, we need a good centre left party and at the moment the closest is SF. I've been living in Germany for the last two years but before that I was in the Kildare north constituency so I would have had a Soc Dem TD. But most places don't have that option.

I really don't like SF at all. Besides the past links to violence I don't like their populism. A good example would be their green policies. They don't really have any. Whenever there's a news story about data centres they jump out and say "data centers bad" and then retreat again. They have no proper policies on agriculture. They say what they feel will get them votes and avoid committing to anything that would lose them votes. So there's some areas of policy that are just vague blobs.

Edit: And to bring it back on point. I have absolutely no idea what labours policies are on anything. I'm assuming they want more houses but that's about it.

rock22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121069853#Comment_121069853

And yet, the decision of labour to coalesce with a right of centre FG government re ally spelled the end of the Labour party.

It has always been a problem for Labour, going back to the 50's to either prop up FG or stay in opposition. When the only two options on the table was a FF government or FG coalition, then it was easy to see why Labour would use its' seats to remove FF. The alternative was perpetual FF government.

But in 2011, there was a real feeling tat a left coalition could form the opposition and hold the centre right to account. And that depended on Labour being the leader of the opposition. And they choose instead to go into government with FG. They had a choice. FG could have continued as a minority government with the tacit support of FF even if there was no coalition.

It didn't help, that Labour tried to push forward an new tax, the water charges, on working people who just couldn't afford anymore bills. Whatever the right or wrongs of water charges, bringing it in then, purely as a fiscal measure, was the wrong policy at the wrong time. Labour voters expected Labour to protect them from that type of tax . Instead they championed the charges.

Previously, the support Labour lost after a period in coalition was regained over the subsequent years, because left leaning voters had no where else to go. But SF are now a potential government party and so they will hoover up the left vote. For many people it is worth taking a chance on SF as they have lost faith in the other parties, Labour especially.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121070596#Comment_121070596

"But in 2011, there was a real feeling tat a left coalition could form the opposition and hold the centre right to account. And that depended on Labour being the leader of the opposition. And they choose instead to go into government with FG. "

I must be stupid or missing something? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Irish_general_election

Labour had 37 seats after the 2011 general election, they needed 84. That's a gap of 43 seats - how the hell were they going to cobble together a coalition of the left?? FG/FF had 96 seats between them, that leaves 33 including several complete loo laas of TDs.

This idea that Labour had some real choice after the 2011 election is a myth made up and perpetuated by those that sought to cannibalise it's vote. They couldn't form a government with FF involved, they couldn't form a coalition of the left. They could have stayed out and supported a minority FG government but the electorate and other parties would have mercilessly criticised them for this, since the countries finances were in a poor state. Stability was needed.

Like the SDLP up north, Labour did the necessary and were thrown under a bus by those seeking to trample them and steal their base vote.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121070543#Comment_121070543

Years ago when SF was focused on 'other things', Green issues were not really a thing. At least you could say that Labour had the strong attachment to the trade unions etc.

But when I think of it the problem with Labour is that they never managed to get into the psyche of the Irish people to get enough votes unless as other posters said the FF or FG vote collapsed. I think that all started in the 1918 election when they stood aside for Sinn Fein.

Then you had the bit of the cross over much in the 1970's later Sinn Fein - Workers Party - Democratic Left and the Labour merge. Would that even happen now?

Would the Labour Party - Sinn Fein and the Social Democrats ever merge? It would have to be called Sinn Fein. I doubt it would ever happen any time soon - maybe in 30 years at a push. Because Sinn Fein have somehow managed to tap into the working vote while also attracting some younger vote elsewhere with short memories. And there are currently too many in Sinn Fein with a certain history for that to be palatable. I think that is the sole reason preventing the merge.

Labour seem to have really missed the boat (when they could have been the third choice and maybe even the second party in Ireland) now they are not even a junior party they are on the periphery of Irish politics basically where SF were without all the 'edgy history'.

The Labour branding always seemed wrong it never tapped into what the Irish people wanted. then when they did go into government in coalition they were viewed as scapegoats or sell outs. Maybe Labour never really had a chance in the first place?

I mean if it looks like that Fine Gael and Fine Fail could conceivably merge in the future years and Labour STILL not able to find a niche in the minds of the Irish electorate it does not say much. I think it comes down to the fact that the people in Labour are/were too 'nice' that is my theory on it.

Look at how ruthless SF and PBP were with Joan Burton? They destroyed the woman. It did not matter that she had more working class credentials than Mary Lou or Richard Boyd Barrett. Somehow despite their leafy suburb rearing and rounded South Dublin vowels, both of them managed to paint Joan Burton as part of the establishment and against the common man. Despite the fact that water charges are common not only in most countries in the world - but in rural Ireland. But it just showed how the Sinn Fein and PBP aggression paid off.

Madness really. It also shows how important branding is. There needs to be a cause a massive gesture - something populist to kick it off.

Has Labour ever had a strong brand? Maybe Dick Spring was arguably Labour's most charismatic leader/electable person in modern times but he was seen as too centrist by the electorate, when he tried to move the party in that direction.

Maybe the Labour leader before Dick Spring sums Labour up - Michael O'Leary who jumped ship to Fine Gael. He initially wanted to make Labour left leaning - suddenly joined Fine Gael. Then at the end he was considering joining the Progressive Democrats!!!

Is there any courage of convictions in Labour at all? Anything the electorate can get behind with them. I don't think think there is. There is nothing. They seem like 'nice' people though.

But how can Ivana Bacik compete with the vociferous and cankerous Richard Boyd Barrett. Who has the anti-establishment left rhetoric off to a tee. And Mary Lou who who somehow has also managed to style herself as anti- establishment, plus has the Sinn Fein populist brand. Bacik has no hope.

Despite Bacik's legal background and obvious intelligence, if he was in a debate with Mary Lou and Richard Boyd Barrett she would finish a distance third I think. Not a hope. It would lose her even more votes and even more seats.

That is before you would even consider Bacik in a debate with Michael Martin and Leo Varadkar. She would lose that as well I would say.

jmcc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121071095#Comment_121071095

Read it again. Rock22 is correct. Labour didn't need to go into government with FG to become leader of the opposition. As the leader of the opposition it had the opportunity to hold FG (and FF) to account and would have eventually become the main Left of centre(ish) party with FF and FG essentially becoming the Right of centre party in a genuine Left/Right axis in Irish politics. But Labour missed the opportunity because mercs, percs and ministerial salaries and pensions were on offer.

SF won the same number of seats as FF in the 2020 GE. (The extra seat that FF had was from the CC which was not an elected seat). SF is now the leader of the opposition and the most popular party according to the opinion polls. Labour needed to position itself, in 2011, in such a manner so that most of the Austerity backlash would have targeted FG and FF in subsequent GEs. But the people in FG were clever. They set Labour up for the fall. It was a trap into which the gombeens in Labour ran into because those ministerial salaries and pensions were used as bait. And what's Labour now? The seven political dwarves.

Regards...jmcc