Time to admit defeat, scrap the navy?

Firblog

Always thought the navy was a bit of a joke, now its a really bad one.

Irish Naval Service will have just 'two ships full time' to patrol seas for the rest of 2023 (thejournal.ie)

Is it time to admit failure and to put the service out to tender?

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058310573/time-to-admit-defeat-scrap-the-navy

No, time to treat defence as a serious matter and fund it.

satguy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019156#Comment_121019156

We need, schools, new hospitals,, a really big new prison,, we need to fix our potholed roads,, we do not need navy boats, or fighter jets.

But we do need one really big plane,, maybe a second hand C-17 or similar type craft ,, or even a civilian aircraft that was refit / repurposed for use as a military troop carrier plane.

We should never need to beg other air forces to bring home Irish Citizens from conflict zones when things go tits up.. 

Firblog

I'll admit I don't know alot about the navy, from a very little bit of searching online (Irish Naval Service - Wikipedia) some of the numbers make no sense to me.

Number of personnel in the Navy: 899

Crew size of Samuel Beckett class ship: 44

Question when the 88 crew are at sea on the 2 active boats (if both will ever be at sea at the same time) what will the other 800 people be doing?

I really hope the figures I've posted will turn out to be badly wrong, but have me doubts.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019214#Comment_121019214

Its really strange that we as a nation are alone in not being able to manage to do multiple things at the same time. How do so many others manage? Maybe they have no schools, or hospitals?

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019222#Comment_121019222

Because you have personnel on leave, you have people that have just come back off a patrol and deserve not to be sent out again, you have people fulfilling shore roles, you have people on career development pathways, you have people out sick, or family leave, you have people on deployment with other sections of the DF or UN/EU, you have specialist sections like the divers...

Any military/Navy is much more than just how many people need to be on the ship/plane/vehicle etc. Even if we were at full establishment we would actually still be short personnel, as is when high skilled/high demand areas like Engineering for example are all but shattered from the Private sector headhunting, it doesn't matter if you have enough crews for 4 ships if you only have engineer watches for 2.

satguy

Some countries need or must have a navy,, they have large overseas territories to look after, in some cases its the leftover remnants of long gone empires.

We Irish have no overseas territories to look after,, and No, I do not think it is our job to make sure Spanish fishing boats have the right size nets.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019251#Comment_121019251

Not even close to reality for navies across the world (or militaries for that matter), nor the tasks that most navies conduct. But either you knew that and are trolling, or you just couldn't be bothered to educate yourself.

satguy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019271#Comment_121019271

This is a discussion forum, we are discussing the Irish Navy,, just because my views differ from yours, you bring out the "Trolling" word.

I should flag your post,, are you really trying to shut down discussion ?

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019283#Comment_121019283

I don't consider clearly inaccurate nonsense as discussion, there are over 150 navies around the world, do they all have large overseas areas? Are they all legacies over Empires? Do they all float around counting fish? So either a) you are one of the people that complain about the limitations of the NS while at the same time point blank refuse to understand how many things are left unsecured because of those limitations (due to politics), b) don't understand the roles navies across the world do, or c) have no interest in having a discussion on factual grounds, or d) elements of all of the above.

satguy

I would be in favour of an EU defense force, where every member of the EU chips in,, and if that was to mean we give up our neutrality, I would be ok with this.

And as part of this EU defense force, we where asked to beef up our army and navy and even air force, this is fine by me.

But if Ireland stays Neutral,, we have no need for gun boats or fighter jets. And joining NATO should never be considered.

Firblog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019233#Comment_121019233

I would seriously doubt that any other navy in the world only has 10% of their personnel on active duty at sea at any one time, it is just bonkers

magicbastarder

it's worth pointing out that the navy is (well, the intention is) scaled to operate 8 vessels; it's stated in the article that the shortfall seems to be in one particular critical skillset. so they very possibly have 8 nearly full crews, but minus a few people per boat who are required.

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019156#Comment_121019156

But what do we buy with this increased funding? The war in Ukraine and Nagorno-Karabakh are showing that most traditional military hardware is obsolete or going to be fast. Cheap drones and missiles can take out multi million Euro systems with ease.

So do we spend billions on big ships, fighters and tanks to be taken out by cheap weapons or spend millions on drones and missiles to take out expensive attacking equipment?

We aren't going to be attacking anyone so batteries of A2/D2 missiles and SAMs will be a better investment than capital ships and fighters, if the enemy can't land we don't need tanks.

mupper2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019807#Comment_121019807

Well for one, we live on an island so ships/boats might be handy....whether loitering munitions exist or not

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019699#Comment_121019699

Other navies tend not to let their sections get depleted to the scale we are at. If most sections are at full complement, but there’s only 33% of engineers, or electricians or chiefs (to name some noted areas the NS is short on), then the fleet isn’t going anywhere. This has been highlighted for over 5 years now as critical areas have lost personnel leaving what’s left to be burnt out trying to cover the gaps.

patmahe

I think what we need to do is look at how other small island nations with a relatively low population density protect their seas. Out of those nations who is doing it best (not necessarily most ships) and would they be willing to share their knowledge with us. Can technology play more of a role, what exactly is the purpose of our Navy? Protect in the event of war, keep drug smugglers off our coastline, all of the above?

I mean if the US decided to invade Ireland tomorrow it won't really matter whether we have 2 ships or 22 ships, we need to decide what the Irish Navy should be and then fund it, which will take proper leadership and political will.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121020505#Comment_121020505

Maybe we should have some sort of Commission to discuss the issues, produce a series of recommendations and then enacted them…

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121020151#Comment_121020151

I'm not saying don't buy boats. But we don't need destroyers or frigates etc. Missiles on shore can protect us from invasion, then patrol boats for fishery protect. Nothing will keep drugs out.

the.red.baron

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019807#Comment_121019807

you know what can take out drones?

Sticks

we have plenty of sticks

Feisar

LOL the Swiss have a bigger Navy than us!

Larbre34

We've got Naval threads on here, at least two that could have covered this trolling.

Manic please pull down the shutters.

Firblog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121020838#Comment_121020838

Care to point out who they are?

Firblog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121020852#Comment_121020852

There are many more threads on electric cars, and yet we're allowed to start new threads to discuss new events relating to them. Just because you don't like what is being asked/suggested doesn't actually mean that you're being trolled.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121024173#Comment_121024173

Apart from that, I love the basic premise of the post, the Navy is in dire straits because we as a nation won’t invest in it, let’s instead spend more on some sort of private body to do it instead…

Cause that makes sense?

Firblog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121025103#Comment_121025103

Bristow signs Irish SAR contract | AirMed&Rescue (airmedandrescue.com)

It makes sense to contract out services which the state has proven it is unsuited to incapable of delivering.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121025103#Comment_121025103

That's the Thatcher way. FG hard-on territory

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121028872#Comment_121028872

And the point is? Oh yeah the state is spending much more on a private service than it would have “in house”. When you consider the difference between engineering officer pay in private sector or other semi state bodies for example your suggestion is going to cost several times what the NS costs.

Montage of Feck

As an island the sea is our biggest natural asset. Guarding it should be our first military priority even if that means cutting the army down.

Firblog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121028884#Comment_121028884

Why was the SAR put out for tender? Why do we get the private sector to carry out so many functions that the could be carried out "in house"? Because the "in house" solution has turned out to be massively expensive and sh*t so many times - and no one is ever held responsible.

RavenP

There are other reasons for privatisation. For a start neo-liberal governments like to transfer tax money from the tax payer to business. A good way to do that is to under fund the service you want to privatise, make reforms that make it worse and then throw up the hands and say “privatise”! The problem is, though, for certain core services,the things that are hard to put a monetary value on like saving lives or providing core infrastructure, it tends not to work out long term. Look at the U.K. to see how bad it has gone for them with everything from transport to energy. Some things should not be in the public sector, some things should not be in the private, but done by the state. The problem in Ireland is a belief that neutrality means we do not need defence, which is untrue.