Time to admit defeat, scrap the navy?

Firblog

Always thought the navy was a bit of a joke, now its a really bad one.

Irish Naval Service will have just 'two ships full time' to patrol seas for the rest of 2023 (thejournal.ie)

Is it time to admit failure and to put the service out to tender?

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058310573/time-to-admit-defeat-scrap-the-navy

No, time to treat defence as a serious matter and fund it.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058310573/time-to-admit-defeat-scrap-the-navy

Honkey says what.

satguy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019156#Comment_121019156

We need, schools, new hospitals,, a really big new prison,, we need to fix our potholed roads,, we do not need navy boats, or fighter jets.

But we do need one really big plane,, maybe a second hand C-17 or similar type craft ,, or even a civilian aircraft that was refit / repurposed for use as a military troop carrier plane.

We should never need to beg other air forces to bring home Irish Citizens from conflict zones when things go tits up.. 

Firblog

I'll admit I don't know alot about the navy, from a very little bit of searching online (Irish Naval Service - Wikipedia) some of the numbers make no sense to me.

Number of personnel in the Navy: 899

Crew size of Samuel Beckett class ship: 44

Question when the 88 crew are at sea on the 2 active boats (if both will ever be at sea at the same time) what will the other 800 people be doing?

I really hope the figures I've posted will turn out to be badly wrong, but have me doubts.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019214#Comment_121019214

Its really strange that we as a nation are alone in not being able to manage to do multiple things at the same time. How do so many others manage? Maybe they have no schools, or hospitals?

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019222#Comment_121019222

Because you have personnel on leave, you have people that have just come back off a patrol and deserve not to be sent out again, you have people fulfilling shore roles, you have people on career development pathways, you have people out sick, or family leave, you have people on deployment with other sections of the DF or UN/EU, you have specialist sections like the divers...

Any military/Navy is much more than just how many people need to be on the ship/plane/vehicle etc. Even if we were at full establishment we would actually still be short personnel, as is when high skilled/high demand areas like Engineering for example are all but shattered from the Private sector headhunting, it doesn't matter if you have enough crews for 4 ships if you only have engineer watches for 2.

satguy

Some countries need or must have a navy,, they have large overseas territories to look after, in some cases its the leftover remnants of long gone empires.

We Irish have no overseas territories to look after,, and No, I do not think it is our job to make sure Spanish fishing boats have the right size nets.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019251#Comment_121019251

Not even close to reality for navies across the world (or militaries for that matter), nor the tasks that most navies conduct. But either you knew that and are trolling, or you just couldn't be bothered to educate yourself.

satguy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019271#Comment_121019271

This is a discussion forum, we are discussing the Irish Navy,, just because my views differ from yours, you bring out the "Trolling" word.

I should flag your post,, are you really trying to shut down discussion ?

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019283#Comment_121019283

I don't consider clearly inaccurate nonsense as discussion, there are over 150 navies around the world, do they all have large overseas areas? Are they all legacies over Empires? Do they all float around counting fish? So either a) you are one of the people that complain about the limitations of the NS while at the same time point blank refuse to understand how many things are left unsecured because of those limitations (due to politics), b) don't understand the roles navies across the world do, or c) have no interest in having a discussion on factual grounds, or d) elements of all of the above.

satguy

I would be in favour of an EU defense force, where every member of the EU chips in,, and if that was to mean we give up our neutrality, I would be ok with this.

And as part of this EU defense force, we where asked to beef up our army and navy and even air force, this is fine by me.

But if Ireland stays Neutral,, we have no need for gun boats or fighter jets. And joining NATO should never be considered.

Firblog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019233#Comment_121019233

I would seriously doubt that any other navy in the world only has 10% of their personnel on active duty at sea at any one time, it is just bonkers

magicbastarder

it's worth pointing out that the navy is (well, the intention is) scaled to operate 8 vessels; it's stated in the article that the shortfall seems to be in one particular critical skillset. so they very possibly have 8 nearly full crews, but minus a few people per boat who are required.

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019156#Comment_121019156

But what do we buy with this increased funding? The war in Ukraine and Nagorno-Karabakh are showing that most traditional military hardware is obsolete or going to be fast. Cheap drones and missiles can take out multi million Euro systems with ease.

So do we spend billions on big ships, fighters and tanks to be taken out by cheap weapons or spend millions on drones and missiles to take out expensive attacking equipment?

We aren't going to be attacking anyone so batteries of A2/D2 missiles and SAMs will be a better investment than capital ships and fighters, if the enemy can't land we don't need tanks.

mupper2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019807#Comment_121019807

Well for one, we live on an island so ships/boats might be handy....whether loitering munitions exist or not

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019699#Comment_121019699

Other navies tend not to let their sections get depleted to the scale we are at. If most sections are at full complement, but there’s only 33% of engineers, or electricians or chiefs (to name some noted areas the NS is short on), then the fleet isn’t going anywhere. This has been highlighted for over 5 years now as critical areas have lost personnel leaving what’s left to be burnt out trying to cover the gaps.

patmahe

I think what we need to do is look at how other small island nations with a relatively low population density protect their seas. Out of those nations who is doing it best (not necessarily most ships) and would they be willing to share their knowledge with us. Can technology play more of a role, what exactly is the purpose of our Navy? Protect in the event of war, keep drug smugglers off our coastline, all of the above?

I mean if the US decided to invade Ireland tomorrow it won't really matter whether we have 2 ships or 22 ships, we need to decide what the Irish Navy should be and then fund it, which will take proper leadership and political will.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121020505#Comment_121020505

Maybe we should have some sort of Commission to discuss the issues, produce a series of recommendations and then enacted them…

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121020151#Comment_121020151

I'm not saying don't buy boats. But we don't need destroyers or frigates etc. Missiles on shore can protect us from invasion, then patrol boats for fishery protect. Nothing will keep drugs out.

the.red.baron

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019807#Comment_121019807

you know what can take out drones?

Sticks

we have plenty of sticks

Feisar

LOL the Swiss have a bigger Navy than us!

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019222#Comment_121019222

Apologies if this has been answered already, I'm just quote posting without reading the whole thread (something I hate seeing).

899 was where we were in the NS at the beginning of the year. It was 739 at the beginning of July. If we assume each ship has a full crew then the 4 ships that remain operational require 160. Unfortunately it isn't that simple, as the ship requires people with specialised skills and qualifications, and this is exactly where the shortages are. Watchkeeping officers in engineering branch, Electricians, Radio radar technicians and Engine room artificers.

Then there are the non-seagoing units, the people who maintain the ships equipment ashore, such as comms, weaponry and Rhibs. You also have administration, people need to be fed, clothed and dressed. Training is constant, and many are based ashore at NMCI (training Both Civilian & Naval Students). Then when you consider the eternal rotation of guard duties, and the shore manning of Comcen, & the fisheries monitoring centre, the available pool gets smaller and smaller. In general, the majority above Lt Cdr rank spend their time between DFHQ and Cork, explaining over and over again to DoD what is needed to stop the exodus, and being ignored.

The reality is though the less ships are at sea, the more people are re-assigned to shore roles, when sea going people get assigned to shore roles where their skills are not used and there is no sign of them being needed, they leave.

As a guide though, Any navy (not just us) needs a large contingent to keep its ships at sea. In the 1990s, we had 7 ships with an average crew of 55 per ship, and a strength of 1100.

The RN has a staff of 33000 for a fleet of 70 ships.

Its clear that even accepting they have bigger ships with larger crew, only a minority of these people are seagoing.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019699#Comment_121019699

you'd be wrong there ted,

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019323#Comment_121019323

"Defense" isn't how we spell it around these parts....

Larbre34

We've got Naval threads on here, at least two that could have covered this trolling.

Manic please pull down the shutters.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019714#Comment_121019714

Now you have it. The shortages are of "key" roles such as Radio, radar and engineering technicians. When you are the emergency service at sea, who are you going to call if you break down?

Firblog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121020838#Comment_121020838

Care to point out who they are?

Firblog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121020852#Comment_121020852

There are many more threads on electric cars, and yet we're allowed to start new threads to discuss new events relating to them. Just because you don't like what is being asked/suggested doesn't actually mean that you're being trolled.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121023123#Comment_121023123

Easy.

US Navy.

Strength of 350000 for 480 ships, of which 290 are active. Thats average 1200 crew per ship, the largest of which has a crew of 4500, the smallest which has a crew of 40. They park up half their fleet for years at a time, and they remain crewed the entire time.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121023137#Comment_121023137

You gotta admit, there are quite a few trolls who have turned up to respond just to this thread, who have never been seen here before.