Time to admit defeat, scrap the navy?

jonnybigwallet

Fix pay!

Dohvolle

Exactly. Working 3 weeks bouncing around the West coast on an OPV is a lot more easy to bear when you aren't getting paid the same as the guy in Kentucky fried Super McDonald King or ALDIDL

Larbre34

Pay.

Respect for a work life balance.

Pensions appropriate to the nature of the career.

Opportunities to develop and progress with hard work.

Adequate staffing appropriate to the task.

= good morale and no problem recruiting and retaining.

mikeym

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121060136#Comment_121060136

More Med trips like Yeats did recently.

Proper time off patrols.

Less duties.

Make seagoing attractive.

Signing on bonus for those who are signing on instead of letting them go on a pension.

Firblog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121061134#Comment_121061134

Can barely put 2 boats to sea; wants them to patrol the med??? Seriously?

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121061932#Comment_121061932

The WBY arrived from 6 weeks in the Mediterranean, 5 weeks ago.

RavenP

@Firbolg actually patrols like this are the kind of thing that helps recruitment / retention, and it builds Ireland kudos with its EU partners, who we might need to call on in the future.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121061134#Comment_121061134

"Make seagoing attractive"

Firblog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121064078#Comment_121064078

not fit to do the job they're supposed to do; send them to do someone else's, so we'll look good? / may get some unknow favour in return at some unknow time in the future? More likely to need the help of the UK, should they go help out in the channel?

RavenP

@Firbolg Problem is, Ireland cannot trust the UK. Ten years ago, possibly, but not now. After May, Johnson and Truss, the UK is, alas and I really mean alas, I am an Anglophile, going down the tubes. Its democracy is in tatters, its population divided, its reputation for stability shot to bits and Neoliberalism has hollowed out its institutions even more than Ireland. It has trouble with recruitment and retention too, all across its services. Its navy is barely able to cover its own roles (albiet wider than IRelands). Same with people who are talking about relying on the UK for Air defence. The UK is down to only about 100 combat aircraft. for everything. It is not the RAF of old. Come a war it has no spare aircraft to cover Northern Ireland, let alone the Republic. We need to get our act together, because the UK is not in a position to help us.

Widdensushi

Surely the Ukrainian war has shown that the navy's part in any conflict is limited,drones etc are the way forward,we have custom's with new bigger ships on order,we have 3 eu fisheries ships working since last year,both roles that the navy would have played a bigger part in previously,I suppose the question is what is the long term plan ? Fisheries and customs delegated elsewhere, satellite can monitor for customs till it comes ashore?combat is not a viable option,is the plan for foreign trips etc? Not against investment but would like to see a plan/purpose to the large scale expenditure.I know the navy lads will attack this post,I don't mean it in a bad way, genuinely asking the purpose in light of how pointless navy has been in recent international engagements etc, investment in aircraft/drones/radar etc might be better.

Strumms

Ukranian war has shown the Navy is still very prevalent in operations.

over 100 different Navy vessels of all classes have seen action for the Ukraine….

a few drones won’t replace a Navy.

If the world changed significantly after an event and another country felt like Ireland was a good place to rock up and take over by way of invading…. There should be ‘some’ sort of deterrent.. we are an island, we need a navy.

mode1990

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058310573/time-to-admit-defeat-scrap-the-navy

Contrary , relying on West Cork trawlermen to fend off Russian vessels who've sinister intent , we rely on the RAF to buzz off Russian jets invading our airspace , as an island with a vast coastline and exclusive economic area we should at least have a navy that's capable of enforcing its authority and stop relying on our neighbours !

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121066113#Comment_121066113

Given the combination of Ukraine basically not having a navy and the Russians having a **** navy, and the relative restricted nature of the Black Sea the lessons learned from the war in naval terms is “complex” imo and shouldn’t be seen as a guide for everything. I mean the loss of the Moskova wasn’t anything new, just bog standard antiship missiles exploiting an old badly designed warship with a likely **** crew, the drone strikes on ships again aren’t new, we’ve seen them against ships off Yemen years if not a decade ago, and drone strikes against fixed infrastructure like the Bridge are again exploiting the circumstances of the war. Navies have been practicing for such attacks and developing systems and methods for dealing with them long before the current war.

Every war shows up issues or lessons to be learned but this idea that naval ships as such are not a path forward is like how every land conflict you seem to get the suggestion that the tank is obsolete… When it isn’t. We’ve had the Commission putting forward a pathway and ideas of what the NS should be developed into, we have easy examples of similar sized nations and what they support and plan on, not sure why there’s the suggestion of somehow needing to come up with unique attributes for the NS.

RavenP

@Widdensushi I would be wary of reading too much into all this drone hype. There have been some drone successes, but many, many failures. Every new tech seems like it will change warfare, until people figure out how to counter it. And the press love these stories of the plucky defenders and their little drones, David vrs Goliath. But just like the AA missile was supposed to kill of the military aircraft and the AT missile the tank, a navy will still play a role.

Dohvolle

In 1916, the arrival of the tank to the trenches was supposed to see an end to trench warfare. It wasn't. It wasn't an end to horses being used in combat either, US special forces were using pack mules in Afghanistan.

The Aircraft carrier was supposed to kill off the battlecruiser. It didn't. The Anti ship missile was supposed to kill off the aircraft carrier, it didnt.

The end of the tank has been predicted many times since 1916. Lately, the drone was supposed to put an end to the Tank. Yet the Ukrainian forces just received the Chally2, and are about to get Abrams too. Why would they do this when the tank is dead?

As for Naval Forces, Ukraine is not Ireland, it is not an island nation. It is closer to Germany or Poland, in that it has a long land Border, access to the sea (Baltic in the case of Germany or Poland, Black Sea for Ukraine) and a large navigable river. Their naval forces are a mix of riverine and Blue water. The Dnepr cuts the country in two. Control of the rivers deep and wide as they are is of more strategic importance than maintaining a presence in the Med. Russia has failed to effectively failed to cross and hold anything west of the Dnepr. It also can't get anything down the Dnepr from either Belarus or Russia. The Access to the Danube from the Black sea has also remained open to Ukraine.

Meanwhile the Russian Black sea fleet is confined to port, unable to stick its nose out lest another Neptun missile land on one. The next chapter has yet to begin, whether or not the Russian Navy tries to blockade the grain ships from Odesa. Attempting to do so will (a) put them in anti-ship missile range and (b) escalate to an act of war against another nation. Time will tell. Meanwhile the Ukraine Navy need do little except keep the vessels maintained.

Firblog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121066180#Comment_121066180

Have we ever had a navy that is capable of enforcing anything (apart from the odd fishery regulation)? I thinik that the Ukranians have proven that you don't need a big navy to defend your coastline from attack from sea, land based anti-ship missile batterys are more than adequate for the job.

What size of Navy do you think we would need so it could enforce it's authority on say some Chinese ships acting suspiciously near underwater cables - and who tell us politely to Fu*k off when requested to move on?

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121069135#Comment_121069135

That has the same flaw as the idea that just SAM's can be used to secure our airspace... It's a good way to blow up something that you don't want blown up (or doesn't need to be blown up) and rather pointless as every assumes you aren't a rogue nation that's going to randomly kill unknown people. And no the war hasn't proved that, both sides are incapable for various reasons of controlling the sea.

As for what we might need... Have you even read the Commission's findings?

Firblog

I pick it up anytime I want a laugh..

How many personnel do we have in Fórsa Spáis at the minute or do the pay scales available for hiring cosmonauts in the public service not compete with those in the private sector?

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121064078#Comment_121064078

In fairness, I wonder about that prioritisation as well. Is there really that little trade in home waters that the trip to the Med is considered a better use of the nation's limited assets? I get all the benefits that you're stating, but it seems to me something which should be considered only after home territory is adequately covered. Unless it is adequately covered, which raises a number of other questions.

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121069135#Comment_121069135

The emergency purchase of MTBs during "The Emergency" was for combat purposes only. MacGinty's book on "The Irish Navy" covers the history of the purchase and their use. As a neutral power during the war, Ireland had to have the capability of enforcing its neutrality, the nation's obligations are referenced a few times in the book. The Naval Service also conducted mine-laying and mine-clearing operations.

As to land-based bateries, for comparison, a 'home-defense' organised navy might be typified by the Scandanavian countries. Sweden, for example, uses ground-based missiles and gun turrets, but they also relied heavily on fast attack craft able to hide in the rugged coastline, submarines able to operate in the shallow coastline, and the air force was well capable and trained in naval attack. Relying on missiles alone wasn't considered an option for them.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121069507#Comment_121069507

Much talk that the NS should stay home and "insert ATCP/ATCA Task here".

The primary role of the defence forces is to protect the state from attack by domestic or foreign enemies. So monitoring the EEZ isn't really a military role, and monitoring of Russian Naval Vessels passing through is like the burglar setting off an alarm to test the response time of the Police. Better off done with an Air Asset, though our small radar signature naval vessels have snuck up on the Russians in the past, mostly because our vessels give off little in the way of Military EW noise.

Anti-narcotic patrols off the SW coast is a Customs task, they have 2 craft to do this, and are in the process of replacing one (and possibly 2) their 22m cutter with a 35m vessel. They are powerless to board any vessel of interest outside the 12 mile limit in any event, unless said vessel flies an irish flag so their small size isn't an issue. The captures are intel led, and its a far better use of resources to have a naval presence in MAOC-N.

Fishery protection is also not a naval task, but to paraphrase someone else, its a civilian task that a Navy do best. In recent years there is a push towards civilianisation of the role, and the Sea Fisheries Protection Authority have a large staff of land based and seagoing staff, as well as access to EU civilian operated fishery protection assets.

Search and rescue? RNLI/Coast Guard are the primary asset at sea and in the air. If its a big one, you send a naval vessel to act as a rescue coordinator.

What is the NS doing in the Med? In short preventing the smuggling of weapons in and out of Libya, now an international basket case. Lets not forget in the 80s on many occasions weapons from Libya found their way onto Irish streets, and killed Irish men and women, from both sides of the border. I would suggest our presence here is as useful, if not more useful than pondering around the SW coast in the hope of bumping into a narcotic smuggling vessel that has not already been monitored since it left its Carribbean backwater some weeks ago.

After that, its all about training, and the experience working with other naval forces in the med is far more valuable than multiple boardings of fishing vessels trying to go about their trade as the State fails to negotiate decent quotas for the Irish fishing fleet..

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121069494#Comment_121069494

The Commission had a section on Space Force? Somehow, I must have missed that. Though it did mention cybersecurity, which is a fair portion of the US Space Force's domain of operations, due to the importance of satellites to the economy.

More seriously, it is currently the definitive guidance as to the things that the DF need to achieve to be able to complete the tasks set to it. I would recommend giving it some weight. It was, after all, written by people with a bit more knowledge on the subject than any of us. (Most likely, at least)

Firblog

LOA 2 Enhanced Capability

"Enhanced contingent capability through the revitalisation of the Reserve Defence Force as part of a genuine single Defence Force across the domains of land, air and sea, and in the newer domains of cyber and space"

Hungry Burger

The pay is just a piss take, a second year apprentice makes more than an able rate hopping around the sea on the West Coast. Until this is sorted the Navy will continue to deplete.

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121073421#Comment_121073421

That doesn’t require a Space Force for Irish purposes. Space is a domain which concerns Ireland, though it’s not one which Ireland can particularly affect right now beyond the intersection with cyber. Knowing what is up there and how it can affect you, or how to utilize private or national partners who do have such assets is still worth it, though

Firblog

Yeah, the sea is another space we can't affect right now... but you're ok utilizing private partners in that regard but not with regard to protecting our waters?

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121074671#Comment_121074671

What do you mean?

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121069494#Comment_121069494

Never takes long till random person on the internet talking about Irish defence declares they know more about what should be done than actual professionals who have actual knowledge on the issues. Guess again other small island nations have it all wrong then?

https://www.nzdf.mil.nz/assets/Uploads/DocumentLibrary/NZDF-Overview-of-Defences-interests-and-engagements-in-space.pdf

Firblog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121077060#Comment_121077060

Yes, because absolutely every report commissioned by the government have been gems of logic and reason, that have absolute regard to how things work in the real world and never pay any regard to the political directions and desires of the paymasters who lay down the terms of reference.