Peter McVerry Trust has 'financial issues'.

kirk.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121183393#Comment_121183393

Like what aside from the admin which is also done by CE staff

As far as I know it's a gravy train for the charity having CE staff

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121183398#Comment_121183398

CE scheme sponsors have all the obligations (and liabilities) of employers, apart from the actual payment of wages - so, management; administration; insurance; supervision; training; direction; provision of equipment, resources and a place of work; duties of care and safety, etc. Plus, they have further obligations to provide training that conforms to quality standards, and to satisfy various DCP quality and audit standards.

"As far as you know" it's a gravy train for the charity but, be honest, that may not be very far at all. The truth is that it costs money — significant money — to be a sponsor of a CE scheme. Plus, charities are not-for-profit entities; any benefits they do receive go ultimately to the objects of the charity. That's kind of the point.

Cal's comment, to which I initially responded, is that charities "are significant businesses looking at their operations, turnover, and staff numbers". Well, he's right; a lot of charities are significant businesses. And they have the overheads of businesses.

The only difference between charities and other businesses is that charities do not pay a dividend to their owners. People who contribute to a charity do not expect to get anything in return, unlike people who buy shares in a company, who expect to get a dividend in return,

kirk.

Very little of the above is actual cost to the employer

They basically provide a place of work little else

Materials are all claimed back as part of the scheme

Peregrinus

What makes you think that very little of this costs an employer anything to provide? Have you spoken to many employers? How do they manage to do all this at no cost?

kirk.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121183414#Comment_121183414

Ya I'm familiar with the operation of these schemes

Rubberchikken

I accept that people who need help and/,or want help need charities to be there but I would question where all the money actually goes.

How much is wasted?

How much is spent on salaries that could be reined in?

It seems no matter how many charities this country has the solutions to homelessness ect aren't really being dealt with.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121183420#Comment_121183420

As others have pointed out, charities are businesses. Yes, you can ask how efficiently or effectively a charity spends its money, just as you can ask that question of any business. But that doesn't really go to the question of whether the enterprise concerned should be be in business at all, or whether the business it undertakes should be undertaken at all.

As for charities not having solved the homelessness problem, well, there wouldn't be any homelessness charities if there weren't any homelessness. There wouldn't be any medical charities if there were no disease. There wouldn't be any conservation charities if there were no destruction. There wouldn't be any educational charities if there were no ignorance. But we live in an imperfect world; all these evils exist and we have to grapple with them. Charities are (part of) our effort to do this. It doesn't make sense, though, to blame the charities for the fact that we have to do this.

If you want to eliminate homelessness the answer is not to give more and more resources to charities that address homelessness. It's to change the housing market, housing policy and public expenditure choices. If you find yourself having to give more and more money to homelessness charities, its because you're not doing that.

whisky_galore

Charities like this one allow the govt to dodge its responsibilities, firing money at various overlapping charities and hoping the problem goes away.

I wouldn't give a red cent to this crowd.

Peregrinus

Presumably you never did give any money to the Peter McVerry Trust, so your determination not to do so in the future is unlikely to bother them.

If you reckon that the government is giving money to this charity or other charities in order to dodge its responsibilities, your problem is not really with the charities, is it?

kirk.

Roughly how many are they housing ATM ?

Peregrinus

Per their website, they have about 12,000 clients, but not all of these would be tenants. The Trust's activities are not confined to acting as a landlord and providing housing directly.

A deeper dig on the website might disclose how many people living in accommodation provided by the Trust, but I leave that as an exercise for the student.

kirk.

12000 you can be sure they don't house that many

kirk.

The website is a rabbit hole hard to find any facts there by the look of it

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121183625#Comment_121183625

Well, the honours student would obtain and read their annual report. Just sayin'.

kirk.

There wouldn't be much left for the homeless after paying for that website

TokTik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121183661#Comment_121183661

The one they removed from their site after this scandal broke? Where, pray tell, would the honour student find this now they’ve pulled it??

ebbsy

CE Sponsors do not get all their expenses , Insurance etc, back from the DSP. That is capped depending on the number of employees on the scheme.

That is why many schemes are merging together.

I have been dealing with this **** for over 20 years.

kirk.

https://pmvtrust.ie/news/publications/annual-reports/

The reports are as flashy as the website ,they must spend a fortune on that stuff

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121183680#Comment_121183680

You can get it from the Charities Regulator. SFAIK the Peter McVerry Trust is constituted as a company limited by guarantee, which means the truly diligent honours student can also get their annual return and other documents from the Companies Registration Office.

ebbsy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121183400#Comment_121183400

Good post

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121183385#Comment_121183385

Well charities operate under specific legislation which differs from company law in a number of respects.

From a governance perspective, probably the most important difference is that the directors of a charity cannot receive a fee, therefore you are relying on volunteers. So, in the case of PMVT, you have an organisation with a turnover of €60m in 2020, a CEO on a six-figure salary, all overseen by unpaid volunteers. That is a serious difference between a charity and any other significant business and it is also a significant problem.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121179905#Comment_121179905

I am getting a little fed up having to produce links and evidence to back up everything I say, while you just post completely untrue statements.

https://pmvtrust.ie/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/Signed-PMVT-CLG-Audited-Accounts-2021-.pdf

Here are the most recent accounts on their own website.

In 2021, they received €41m from the government and raised another €11m in fundraising. Their total revenue was €53m, in line with the €50m I mentioned. Please stop posting untruths about PMVT.

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121183601#Comment_121183601

I'm no student but I was able to read the article on page 1. While they claim to have 'worked with' whatever that means over 12000 people they have over 2000 service users and tenants, so between 2000 and 2100 I'd imagine. They don't say how many of them are actually tenants.

blanch152

https://pmvtrust.ie/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/Signed-PMVT-CLG-Directors-Report-and-Unaudited-Financial-Statements-YE31DEC20.pdf

https://pmvtrust.ie/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/Signed-PMVT-CLG-Audited-Accounts-2021-.pdf

Now, this is interesting. Can anyone spot the evidence that PMVT and their auditors don't have much of a clue about what is going on inside the charity?

Hint: Look at the 2020 figures in both statements and compare.

Donations and legacies are €16,030,805 in both statements, and other income is listed as €7,820,000 in both. However, the amount for income for charitable activities is shown as €32,601,692 in the 2020 accounts, but revised upwards to €36,428,442 in the 2021 accounts. Somehow, they forget about €4m when doing the accounts in 2020 that they later found and had to account for the next year. Sure, why would you bother looking after the taxpayer's money?

(And before, someone comes back and asks how I know it is €4m of the taxpayers money that they didn't account for at the time, it is all there in the accounts)

Not only that, but the board of the charity has questions to answer from these accounts. At the end of 2021, PMVT owed the taxman €5.7m in unpaid PAYE and PRSI, see note 16 of the accounts. The surplus for the year was €1.8m. Was anyone asking questions on the board in March 2022 about how they would be able to repay these taxes due????? Because they should have known about the problem then.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121183388#Comment_121183388

Donkey work is fine.

But working with homeless people is far from donkey work, and requires a social care qualification. I don't believe any CE scheme is paying for that.

Jim_Hodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121183574#Comment_121183574

Their report states that they accommodate 2000 per night, have an annual income of €53 million and 506 core staff. Revenue equates to €2,200 per person accommodated per month.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121183400#Comment_121183400

When budgeting for staff costs, a standard public service template adds 30% of the remuneration costs as an overhead to cover management, administration, place of work, etc. That would still mean huge savings to PMVT.

kirk.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121183955#Comment_121183955

They do

Loads of carer jobs on CE schemes , no experience necessary

Training provided

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121183906#Comment_121183906

41 isn't 50. That's not my opinion.

The money they receive is for payment for services the government or their agencies can't or won't supply.

Your problem is with the government not the charity.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121183991#Comment_121183991

They don't just accommodate people, they have health programmes, educational programs, counselling, etc.