Peter McVerry Trust has 'financial issues'.

02-10-2023 10:15PM

The model is wrong PMVT should not own any property themselves, the provision of the actual housing could be anything a housing association or a professional landlord for profit, the support should come from PMVT and they should only be providing the support which should be evidence and outcome-based and monitored to check that all visits and supports take place, and other services should come from mental health services, GP's, and the like.

They should not be employing policy advisors or communication people themselves.

chrisd2019 · 02-10-2023 10:57PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121186605#Comment_121186605

Also they seem not to correlate those that do respond with the letters sent, as I must be getting Christmas cards from Simon supposedly the work of disabled artists for the past 20 years, even marking them return to sender and putting them back in the post doesn't stop them arriving the following year!

blackbox · 02-10-2023 11:00PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121184834#Comment_121184834

In my view, if you are employing all those people you are a business, not a charity.

If a psychiatrist or a nurse or a banker wants to give some of his time for free to a needy person, that is charity.

You may have a different view.

corner of hells · 02-10-2023 11:26PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121187077#Comment_121187077

Bearing in mind that nearly all schools in Ireland are registered as charities , should their staff be working for free ?

To give you an example Simon Detox provides medical assisted detox from alcohol / benzos is,needing addiction nurses to be employed full time , how would you a get a team of nurses to provide their services for free ?

elperello · 02-10-2023 11:37PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121187077#Comment_121187077

Volunteers can in some cases play an important role in helping charitable organisations.

However if the charity is providing services which require full time professional staff they cannot rely on volunteers.

The staff have bills to pay, they need a place to live, food etc. therefore they need an income.

PeadarCo · 03-10-2023 07:12AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121187077#Comment_121187077

Your point is well intentioned but naive it's also not unique and is actually a problem for charities in Ireland

The problem with not paying people is you just end up with unqualified people doing jobs they are not trained to do and you just will have even more scandals. Anyone who has volunteered for a club/society understands how hard it can be to get people full stop never mind qualified people.

As it is charities don't tend to pay well. Once the salary you are offering goes below a certain point you end up with staff doing jobs they don't really have the experience/qualifications to do. This just increases the risk of financial/operational issues.

The other point is you will just end up charities in all but name. They can just incorporate as limited companies. Many do so anyway. Ironically though incorporation would increase the level of transparency with information available on the CRO for a very small fee.

Peregrinus · 03-10-2023 07:30AM

Lots of charities are incorporated as limited companies. The question of what legal structure or form an enterprise has is quite separate from the question of whether the enterprise is charitable in nature. One looks at how the enterprise organises, manages and controls itself and the other looks at what the enterprise actually does.

Field east · 03-10-2023 07:58AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121183886#Comment_121183886

Met with a very experienced person once - worked with all kinds of boards,big , small, commercial and voluntary- and said that by far the most difficult boards to work with were the voluntary ones , with loads of personal agendas very poor record keeping, vague objectives rule braking, personal fifedoms, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc

PeadarCo · 03-10-2023 08:07AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121187463#Comment_121187463

I know but it's not black and white. Many private companies regularly donate money to different causes and many charities have commercial sides as way of generating cash ie coffee shop etc

My point is that banning "charities" from paying X salaries(or whatever regulation you are talking about) is not simple, as profitable enterprises and charities are not binary options. They exist on a spectrum. As can be seen on this thread alone for some people paying staff means you are not a charity. I'd also argue that once you get to a certain size it's prudent to ensure an organisation makes a surplus on a regular basis to avoid financial issues. But that regular surplus can have a charity be accused of focusing on profit.

The increased regulation of charities over the last number of years has helped but I'd still argue its easier to access financial records of private companies compared to charities(assuming they aren't incorporated).

Peregrinus · 03-10-2023 08:55AM

I wouldn't disagree with any of that. The defining characteristic of charities is not, and has never been, that they don't pay their staff; it's that they don't pay their owners. They can, and often do, operate in a highly commercial fashion, hiring and paying staff, running revenue-generating businesses, making profits, etc. What they don't do is distribute those profits to shareholders, owners, founders or whoever; the plough them back into their activities.

The other defining activity is that those activities must themselves be charitable — i.e. for the public benefit. That's pretty broad; it covers a lot of things that go beyond the relief of poverty.

In the UK, the National Trust is an extremely wealthy organisation - it's the largest landowner in the UK, with net assets (apart from its land and property estate) of GBP 1.7 bn, annual income of GBP 660 million, about 2,500 rent-paying tenants and more than 6,500 employees. But it's a charity because it's core business is heritage conservation and it doesn't distribute its profits.

odyssey06 · 03-10-2023 09:01AM

It would probably be more accurate if we could shift to describing such enterprises as "not for profit" rather than "charities" as is common I think in the States.

Peregrinus · 03-10-2023 09:30AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121187645#Comment_121187645

It might be, although that too could be a bit confusing. "Not-for-profit" businesses can and do aim to make profits, and actually make profits; they just can't distribute their profits to shareholders/owners/investors/funders. It's the funders/founders/contributors/donors who are acting not for profit, rather than the businesses themselves. People don't always appreciate this.

There is also a distinction between a "not for profit" organisation and a charity. A not-for-profit need not do anything for the public benefit. If a group of people establish, say, a social club — even a very expensive, exclusive social club — that provides a clubhouse, dining, sports facilities, etc to its members, that's a not-for-profit. But it's hardly a charity, since its whole purpose is to benefit its founders, even though the benefit doesn't take the form of dividends or monetary payments.

03-10-2023 10:46AM

They have to pay staff it's a daft idea they shouldn't. Any nursing or mental health support should be provided by an HSE-regulated service they should not be employed by the homeless charity or NGO directly. The Homeless NGOs should only be employing the hostel staff and community support staff and staff who direct the money from the HSE to the service, numerous other staff and departments have built up around services and that should not be happening.

Peregrinus · 03-10-2023 12:20PM

Lots of charities are HSE-regulated - all the voluntary hospitals are charities, for one thing. There's no problem in principle with charities employing properly qualified and regulated staff to deliver regulated services. The problem in practice arises where charities aren't funded to employ the professional staff required, but are still commissioned to provide the service, or to provide some kind of band-aid substitute service because no-one will pay for the provision of the regulated service.

03-10-2023 12:46PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121188390#Comment_121188390

But who decides what level of services is needed? An NGO could say we need a service staffed 24 hours a day by clinical psychologists that's what they do in Canada and Norway when they get pushback from the HSE saying they won't fund it, the NGO contacts the media in the hope that that pressure can be brought to bear on the HSE that way, it's a ridiculous way to conduct business.

Homeless services or any services should be very accountable for any funding they receive including close scrutiny as to whether the services are effective.

corner of hells · 03-10-2023 01:01PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121188517#Comment_121188517

Most prominent NGOs / charities are governed by having to reach KPIs along with satisfy NQSF standards n order to access funding.

Homeless services in Dublin work under the DRHE.

03-10-2023 01:07PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121188572#Comment_121188572

If you talk to the on the ground staff working for the NGOs you will get very mixed responses about what the service are providing.

corner of hells · 03-10-2023 01:12PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121188596#Comment_121188596

Maybe so , but I’m a low threshold homeless service Social Care Worker for years.

AndrewJRenko · 03-10-2023 01:31PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121188596#Comment_121188596

Same with most businesses.

03-10-2023 01:50PM

Double post

03-10-2023 02:20PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121188572#Comment_121188572

Why would they need to fundraise, they provide the services to agreed standards they get the money? I looked up a service that stays under the radar somewhat they provide wrap-around services, and they are looking for a special needs assistant, special needs assistants are provided by schools and childcare providers why do they need their own? when does the wrap-around care fade out? or will the next generation brought up with wrap-around care need care and support when they are adults?

I know they are more philosophical points but if services are being funded by the taxpayer they need to be answered.

I am all for individuals and families getting support as long as it's open to scrutiny and not just financial scrutiny.

03-10-2023 02:35PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121188615#Comment_121188615

Does the service always work with the aim of fading out service? in other words, do the clients get a time-limited evidence-based intervention or is it lifelong support?

blanch152 · 03-10-2023 02:42PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121189150#Comment_121189150

The poverty industry charities aren't interested in the aim of fading out services, or supporting self-sufficiency. If they succeeded in that, they would need less money. That doesn't work for their highly paid senior staff.

corner of hells · 03-10-2023 03:05PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121189150#Comment_121189150

Not time limited , my role is supporting people move out of homelessness.Identifying the housing option is a priority, I.e senior citizens, private rented , social housing, supported housing and so in.

In some cases there is lifelong support.

corner of hells · 03-10-2023 03:06PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121189192#Comment_121189192

You’re very limited , still you got a thanks , that’s what counts?

blanch152 · 03-10-2023 03:10PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121189315#Comment_121189315

if you search through my posts, you find ones that set out the six-figure salaries paid to poverty industry executives in charities as well as analyses of strategic plans geared towards growing income, not solving problems.

AndrewJRenko · 03-10-2023 03:11PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121189150#Comment_121189150

The service works based on what professional experts with decades of experience in funding and operating such services know will actual work on the ground.

It doesn't work based on half-assed theories from people with zero experience of funding and operating such services who want to impose their own personal values on others.