United Ireland governing system

maccored

we need a completely new country set up - one for example where the justice system isnt a replica of the british one with the funny wigs and all. the whole idea and concept of a UI needs to be teased out and discussed on a national level

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120908999#Comment_120908999

Turkey is (in effect) a dictatorship, and no it's not going well for anyone except Mr Erdogan. Do you fancy a 58% inflation rate?

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2023/0727/1396768-turkeys-inflation-rate/

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120909036#Comment_120909036

It will not.

Your ugly British flag has bare breasts on it.

I stand by the flag of the Republic.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120909599#Comment_120909599

Christ almighty.

The last thing a putative united Ireland needs is a more divisive, more polarised system.

What you call 'bureaucracy' I and others call democratic checks and balances.

I have no desire to be ruled by an SF Mussolini even if he did make the trains run on time....

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120923592#Comment_120923592

No, it would be a historical reclamation. Armagh became the primatial see because it was already a centre of secular power — it was the seat of the Northern Uí Néill.

So the argument in favour of Armagh would be twofold. First, in a federal Ireland the capital should not be the principal city of any of the component states. (That's why the Australian capital is Canberra, the US has Washington DC, Brazil has Brasilia, Canada has Ottawa, etc - in each case the capital is a fairly small city whose main significance is as the federal capital, and does not stem from size or from being a centre of business, industry, culture, etc.) And, secondly, if Ireland is to follow that path, Armagh is small city that has little in the way of business, industry or culture but does have historical resonance that harks back to an Irish polity that pre-exists English settlement.

I'm not necessarily convinced by the argument myself, but it has nothing to do with Armagh's ecclesiastical status.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120923901#Comment_120923901

And I'm not convinced by the argument that it's historical connection to the O'Neills is now anywhere near as relevant as its religious status. These things change over time and that is what Armagh is now far better known for. Besides if you were to go down the historical route Meath would make far more sense.

Also it's not a small city, it's a tiny one and any comparison to Ottawa, Canberra or Brasilia etc is rather ridiculous.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120924007#Comment_120924007

Canberra and Brasilia did not exist prior to being nominated as the new capital city. The same is true for Abuja in Nigeria.

Armagh at least has two Cathedrals.

It would expand rapidly if it was nominated, and would be basically a green field site.

Now Armagh is known for its green apples, but the new city could incorporate a few orangeries for balance.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120923592#Comment_120923592

For our friends in NI symbolism is the most important aspect of life. However, not for those of us who live south of the border.

They need some small wins to feel good. Flegs, marches, and banging big drums matters to them.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120915442#Comment_120915442

Seriously?

We need a lot less pandering to religion in Ireland. Not more.

Religion is the cause of the problem not the answer!

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120924153#Comment_120924153

That sort of thing works great in a country like Brazil or Burma where civil servants and their families can be relocated overnight at gunpoint.

This thread is mad.

dublincc2

It’s not ugly, it’s distinctive and has represented Ireland for centuries, including being the modern coat of arms and seal of the president.

As for the breasts, grow up. It’s 2023. What’s your problem?

dublincc2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120923901#Comment_120923901

The old Parliament building on College Green is the natural and best choice for an all-Ireland parliament.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120901051#Comment_120901051

Now you're talking!

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120926022#Comment_120926022

This is the seal of the President of Ireland:

This is the coat of arms of Ireland:

You are referring to the coat of arms of the Kingdom of Ireland. An English and later British invention, a puppet state. We are not going back there.

As for the breasts... why, exactly? Even if it wasn't a design straight off the British royal standard, which it is, why would you?

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120926606#Comment_120926606

This would cost many billions of euro, what would the benefit be?

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120927289#Comment_120927289

No it wouldn't.

Hotblack Desiato

OK then, how much will it cost so?

We spunked a billion euro back in the day on Charlie McCreevy's pointless shuffling around of civil servants, but it did benefit FF landowners so there was that 🙄

That was a scheme much smaller in scale than relocating the entire apparatus of government somewhere else.

Where?

Why??

dublincc2

The breasts on the harp flag are distinctive and would be a popularly associated symbol of Ireland like the maple leaf for Canada.

LambshankRedemption

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120898469#Comment_120898469

I can't remember where I read or heard it but it was something like "America's most unstable export was its executive governance model".

Our model is much better, though I agree the Seanad is just a talking shop.

Seth Brundle

To move the capital would involve thousands of key civil servants (and their families) having to move to another city. You'll also need to move teachers and other public servants "support staff" to move there in tandem. All of these people will need somewhere to live (pretty much ready to walk into).

How will this be done, at what cost to the exchequer and for what exact benefit?

Sam Russell

Most USA states have a small state capital - like Albany for New York - but it still has New York, New York as its major city.

The title 'Capital City' does not involve the apparatus of Gov moves to Armagh, anymore than it is centred on the Phoenix Park because that is the official residence of the President. It would be symbolic of a new UI.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120928752#Comment_120928752

Albany/Schenectady/Troy (which is all, in reality, one urban area) has a population of about a quarter of a million, a train station with 750k annual passengers and an international airport.

The location of the apparatus of government is more or less the definition of the Capital City.

L1011

750k annual passengers is a commuter station in Europe - there's actually a number of Dublin commuter stations with around 1m year, if the only per station figures given are extrapolated (they are a single day snapshot)

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120934468#Comment_120934468

Yes, but Armagh it ain't.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120928651#Comment_120928651

Limerick mentioned here but point is valid..

'I will propose a solution that I would like the Minister to listen to. I would make a case for my home of Limerick - I am sure that the Minister of State, Deputy O'Donovan, makes this case to the Minister daily - as a solution to the challenges facing Ireland. As Deputy Boyd Barrett outlined, it is difficult for people to purchase homes in Dublin. Dublin faces significant challenges - it is crowded and expensive. Limerick offers a solution. The much maligned decentralisation programme actually worked in Limerick, with Revenue and Irish Aid decentralising to there. Their decentralisation was successful. I encourage all Ministers to look to Limerick as a solution to Dublin's problems.'

Proper decentralisation involving the relocation of workers to regional hubs would bring incomes directly into regional towns and help create further spin-off businesses and jobs in their localities (a multiplier effect). The added boost is the cost savings that could potentially be made by selling government buildings in the capital and implementing lower wages to new recruits as they start on the lower scale.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120938879#Comment_120938879

One of the biggest problems with "proper decentralisation" is that most of those high up in the civil service who would need to move with their department are older and settled and more than likely unwilling to move out of Dublin. Their spouses possibly also work but not in the civil service. If you cannot persuade the Dept leaders to move then what hope have you of moving those who work for them?

Sam Russell

Decentralisation cannot be the 'One for every constituency in the land' that Charlie McCreevy introduced.

Decentralisation should be based on four or five regional large cities/towns that can be hubs for Gov business. We already have some of this, and the 'working from home' would make it easier to implement.

It is with this in mind that I suggested that Armagh could be the new capital with just a few Gov offices based there. It would be unnecessary for every, or even any, Ministry to be based there, and it could be the symbol that the UI would in fact be a new beginning for all of the island.

We should be well on the way to solving the various problems like housing, health, infrastructure, by then.

By the way, I doubt that Armagh could ever be agreed to be the new capital, but it would be interesting to hear the arguments about where a new capital should be based.

Podge_irl

Realistically there isn't going to be a new capital. Its going to stay in Dublin.

Though if you wanted to discuss for argument's sake, then I would guess Athlone.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120939368#Comment_120939368

It would be interesting to hear arguments or and against such places.

Armagh was not really a serious suggestion because it is too small. It does have the main two Christian churches having their Primate of All Ireland based their - so no other place has that.

The county town of Leitrim is not Leitrim, it is Carrick on Shannon, and part of it is in Co Roscommon.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120939075#Comment_120939075

So true. They shouldn't have this power of veto over policy and probably stymied any real dentralisation.