United Ireland governing system

dublincc2

I believe that in a united Ireland scenario the position of the presidency and the entire governing structure needs to be completely reformed. My suggestions are:

1. Reform the presidency into an executive role. The president is the head of state and of government simultaneously, like in the US but not exactly the same. The office of Taoiseach and Tánaiste are abolished and subsumed by the president. The president to be elected every five years with maximum of two terms. The president oversees the cabinet and is able to appoint and dismiss ministers. They can also issue executive orders. The president can also appoint one or more vice presidents, perhaps one of the two vice presidents being from the Protestant community in Ulster.
2. Scrap the Seanad.
3. The Dáil moves from Leinster House to the old building on College Green. Number of members increased to 250. The Dáil has legislative power to override executive orders made by the president. Group leaders are in charge of TDs taking the place of Taoiseach/leader of opposition with the Ceann Comhairle being a senior figure in the government.
4. Increase autonomy for local councils. Have mayors/council leaders act as essentially provincial governors although Ireland remaining a unitary state with a capital in Dublin.
5. Regional forums for each of the four provinces based in Armagh, Dublin, Cork and Galway. No return to Stormont under any circumstances. Turn the Stormont buildings into a hotel, a museum of partition or blow it up in a controlled demolition and build houses on the site.

Podge_irl

Why?

Ardillaun

There’s an armada of things to be decided. If it ever happens I hope we don’t simply go with everything we have down here but pick the better policy between the two, e.g. UK rights to roam the countryside. In the end I suspect we’ll have nothing done when it happens and will be forced to leave them in limbo in a pseudo-federal system as they are up there for a decade or two.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058306438/united-ireland-governing-system

Well I agree that there should be an overall assembly of some sort. But I'd abolish all the local authorities as they currently are and replace with five regional bodies: Ulster (inc Donegal, Cavan & Monaghan), Leinster, Connacht, Munster and Greater Dublin (the four current LAs that make up Dublin). Each elected and directly administrating their region. With an additional overall elected body, who would rotate sitting in each of the five regional HQs. A federal type system if you like, with the national body responsible for primary legislation, security, revenue and so on. The regional bodies to be funded from above with additional capacity for local taxes to be spent regionally.

dublincc2

There are some drawbacks to giving the president so much power, for example as we saw with Trump inexperienced people in high office is risky business. If Conor McGregor is elected president for example, which TBH might actually happen someday, there would need to be a lot of parliamentary actions and judicial oversight.

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120896380#Comment_120896380

There are already very few LA in Ireland.

You want to reduce that number to 5.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058306438/united-ireland-governing-system

No. What a silly idea. Where do I even start? Why would we replicate the US system over here. Ours actually works.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120898446#Comment_120898446

There's 31 local authorities I think in the Republic, not sure how many equivalent up North. Far too many borders between all these.

Geuze

Yes, 31 now, there were 114 until 2014.

There was a massive cut in the number of LA in 2014.

dublincc2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120898469#Comment_120898469

You can start with the fact that our presidency is an absolute joke and a waste of money. It’s basically a role to fulfil the duties that would be undertaken by the British monarch. An elected equivalent of the king, but much more pitiful.

All of Ireland’s presidents have been crap and completely unremarkable, with the singular exception of Mary McAleese. Also they have all been people that nobody had ever heard of that were plucked from the back row of Irish politics (all of them except for De Valera were nobodies). Michael D is harmless but he’s also pointless and aimless. He’s cringeworthy.

The next presidential election is probably going to be won by Bertie Ahern, and when he’s done it will probably be Conor McGregor. At least in the case of the former there is experience, but also the capacity for political chancers to get in for publicity.

The president should have real executive power and have be the key person in Irish politics instead of the pen-pushing waste of money the Irish president is today.

Hermy

Mary Robinson is far from unremarkable.

And Michael D. Higgins is far from a nobody.

Hotblack Desiato

The next presidential election is probably going to be won by Bertie Ahern, and when he’s done it will probably be Conor McGregor.

You think this, and you want to give the presidency more power?

We have it exactly right at the moment. The role of the presidency is to uphold the constitution not just act as a rubber stamp for the government (like those UK monarchs you mentioned) even while performing illegal acts like proroguing parliament.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120899208#Comment_120899208

That's a helluva lot of borders. And yes there are borders between local authorities as anyone who lives near one is all too well aware of. Roads fixed one side, potholes the other. School transport buses that can't cross the invisible line. Bin collections, even health services. Far too many borders in the this wee country. Abolish them and replace with 5 regional authorities.

Geuze

The LA do not run school transport.

Bins are privatised, nothing to do with LA.

HSE borders are nothing directly to do with LA.

I would just like to chime in to say I don't any idea what a United Ireland would look like.

Where do the politicians even start the conversation?

It would essentially be a brand new country as the North is not joining the south and visa versa.

Geuze

Yes, a new country. Not a takeover.

Could you call it a merger?

A new State.

I presume that would mean:

a new flag

a new constitution?

a new parliament?

dublincc2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120900843#Comment_120900843

There should only be 39 councils. 32 counties + Dublin/Belfast/Cork/Derry/Limerick city councils. Get rid of the three Dublin councils and bring back Dublin County Council.

Kilkenny, Armagh and Waterford to be city and county councils. Galway isn’t legally a city so gets merged as one Galway county council.

dublincc2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120900780#Comment_120900780

Yes I do. Someone with experience and someone with real political responsibility.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120900957#Comment_120900957

Maybe even a new capital?

dublincc2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120900600#Comment_120900600

Mary Robinson was a joke. Ran away from office for a seat at the UN.

Higgins wasn’t known to most people outside of politics, and even then was just some cringe lefty activist that was hard to take seriously.

We need a president who has real power and responsibility.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120901057#Comment_120901057

Why?

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120901012#Comment_120901012

CSO definition:

Galway is a city.

dublincc2

It was never given city status though letters patent. It’s a town.

GSBellew

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058306438/united-ireland-governing-system

Why would you include an automatic role based on religion ?

If we had an automatic Vice President from the Protestant community, we would need one from the Catholic community too, then we have the Travelling community, the Pastafarian's and so on, it would be a never ending list.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120900957#Comment_120900957

The GFA provides for none of the above, just the transfer of NI from state A to state B.

I couldn't give a fiddlers for our anthem which is by convention sung in a language it was not written in, 90+% of people don't know the words of, and is militaristic anyway, but the tricolour, the flag which symbolises peace and republicanism (in the anti-monarchical sense) is non-negotiable, and would be a massive mistake to give up as if we did it'd just become the emblem of republican hardliners - giving back to them ownership of it which Jack Charlton went to such effort to win back...

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120901038#Comment_120901038

Nothing in your proposal requires that the President should have any relevant experience at all, and you don't make him responsible to anybody except for a single instant, at the end of his first term, when he has to face the electorate if he wants a second term. Unlike the Taoiseach, he wouldn't be accountable to, or require the confidence of, Dáil Éireann.

I think you're setting up the potential of a deadlock between the President and the Oireachtas, each with their own independent electoral mandate, and I can't see what advantages you think will accrue from this system.

Not sure why you are proposing "one or more vice-presidents" when the vice-presidents don't seem to have any powers or functions.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120901038#Comment_120901038

So neither of those two grasping clowns then.

Giving so much power to one individual is risky. What is the benefit? If this is in prospect for a united Ireland I will be voting No for certain, I don't want to be ruled by an elected SF dictator.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120901792#Comment_120901792

Why do you care what a UK monarch did or didn't do? Is that your basis for the governance of Ireland going forward?

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120901822#Comment_120901822

Exactly, we need to run religion out of politics once and for all rather than give certain ones special status.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120901792#Comment_120901792

It was given city status through an Act of the Oireachtas which is infinitely more relevant.

Musicrules

It's a really exciting time with loads of opportunities for us all. New ideas, new systems, ways of doing things. It should be open for all to make suggestions as we move forward as 1. It's actually a chance to make a fresh start, make positive steps to ensure a prosperous future for all our people. There's no rush. We have time to discuss and plan our reunification. It's important to get it right. Once complete though, it will be an incredible day and time for Ireland.

dublincc2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120902570#Comment_120902570

The same Oireachtas that removed the city statues from Kilkenny which had always been a city and conferred city status onto Galway which was never considered a city.

There is no conversation or debate to be had in this. City status in this part of the world is a much more complex and historical title, not a local government title or convenience. Galway is a large town and the city council should be abolished. All of Co. Galway should be run under one single county council.

dublincc2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120901864#Comment_120901864

The functions of the Dáil would be:

1. Making, changing, removing laws.
2. Accepting international contracts.
3. Discuss, increase or decrease budget and accept or reject the budget in the Dáil.
4. If the Dáil makes a law about a topic where the President has issued an executive order, parliamentary law overrides the decree.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120902947#Comment_120902947

I get that. It's somewhat similar to the relationship between the US President and the Congress, except that you've given the Dáil no say in the appointment of Ministers or other officials, and no power to hold them accountable. I'm just puzzled as to why you think this is a superior model.

Your criticims of the current model of the presidency seems to be (a) that it only exercises largely ceremonial functions, like the British monarch, but (b) it costs much, much less than the British monarchy. I struggle to see this as a very weighty criticism, to be honest, and certainly not as something which justifies so drastically reducing the power of the Oireachtas.

Hotblack Desiato

We keep being told the what, we keep asking the why and keep being ignored.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120902910#Comment_120902910

There is no conversation or debate to be had in this

You are correct there isn't. It is up to the democratically elected Oireachtas and I could not possibly care less what some historic monarch thought about it and it is farcical to suggest that is more relevant.

Dslatt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120900530#Comment_120900530

Douglas Hyde was a founder of the Gaelic League, he played a huge part in our cultural revival.

Sean Kelly was a former Tanaiste and Minster for Finance, as well as other ministerial posts

Erskine Childers. also Tanaiste and was Minister for Health, as well as other ministerial posts

O'Dalaigh was Attorney General and Chief Justice

Patrick Hillery was Minister for Education and other ministerial posts as well as vice president of the European Commission.

Nobodies? Perhaps you should refrain from speaking about things you clearly know absolutely nothing about.

dublincc2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120903482#Comment_120903482

Hyde did nothing and was privately a monarchist.

Kelly - who?

Childers - who?

O’Dalaigh - who?

Patrick Hillery - played golf for 14 years and was somewhat noteworthy but stratospherically irrelevant in Irish political life.

None of them exercised any real power.

Higgins list of duties as president is basically a bargain-basement version of the duties of Charles III. A pointless figurehead and pen-pusher. We may as well have Charles as our head of state. The only difference is he isn’t elected every 7 years in a vote with a tiny turnout as we have here.

A new united Ireland must be a fresh start, which means abolishing the British-inspired parliamentary system and move to a presidential one. An elected president with real power like in the US, France or Turkey is the true mark of a republic.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058306438/united-ireland-governing-system

Right.... and of course this is all based on the assumption that we have very honest politicians that will make it work....

May be a good idea that you send a couple of years researching forms of government and perhaps then you'd understand just what a well designed democracy we actually have and why people would not want to give it. The voters have rejected, the abolitions for the PR system twice, the abolition of Seanad twice and the the lowering of the age requirement last time around. That should tell you that Irish voters have a good understand of how their democracy works, what would weaken it and they are not about to give up their sovereignty for what you are offering.

dublincc2

The parliamentary system here is copy and pasted from the UK. The president is a role of convenience to undertake the duties that the British monarch would have undertaken if Ireland had remained in the UK.

In a united Ireland we should move away from this and reorganise our form of government.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120905232#Comment_120905232

At the risk of repeating myself, why?

What problems have you identified in our current system and what do your proposals do to address these problems?

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120905232#Comment_120905232

Nope they are fundamentally different. First of all you can’t cut and past a constitution that does not exist. And Ireland like Switzerland is one of only two countries having a sovereign people, most have a sovereign parliament and in the case of the UK it is not even clear who the sovereign is! Parliament? The PM since he can use the King’s Prerogative to subvert parliament or even the Royal since the speaker and the PM have both accepted Charles & the Queen’s interference in the operation of parliament to their benefit, or possibly even the Privy Council.

It’s true that all of the former dominions borrow texts from each other at the drafting stage but the implication, administration and interpretation is different.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120900915#Comment_120900915

The result of a vote for reunification in NI would basically just be Dublin taking Westminster's role over Stormont for the short term. It could take decades after that to negotiate the final settlement.

the idea that it would just be a direct integration of NIs government with the ROI government; and with NIs county councils just becoming one with ours - they're far too small for starters - or even just quietly merging with DL/CN/MN in to one body - isn't plausible.

The use of the term "Ulster" is going to continue to possibly cause actual wars up there for decades yet; NI Republicans would not be impressed with suddenly finding themselves under an Ulster Provincial Council that would still have a huge Unionist bloc on it; and barring a few outliers the reaction in DL/MN/CN would be even worse.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120901792#Comment_120901792

Galway was given city status in 1986. You may be thinking of Kilkenny as the town that pretends its a city (and has specific legal protections for doing so).

Letters Patent do not exist in this country.

Musicrules

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120905387#Comment_120905387

Have you ever heard of Éire nua?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89ire_Nua#:~:text=6%20External%20links-,Ideology,by%20the%20British%20in%201922.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120905557#Comment_120905557

Yes, but it is about as plausible as the UVFs proposals for re-partition (and genocide after) in the 90s. And a huge element of it was out of hatred of the Dublin government as much as sensibility.

Musicrules

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120905562#Comment_120905562

It is plausible and don't forget that Ulster has a large Nationalist majority. Unionists will be treated with respect and will be welcomed into reunification. Things are moving on. The Alliance party are growing for example. This will not be the catastrophe some people want to make out. People want prosperity, they want strong, united communities. A united Ireland leads to that. Of course there will be stumbling blocks, that's why open discussion needs to happen and the pathway mapped out. This will be a great thing for our country. An amazing opportunity to create something that the generations after us will be forever grateful.

Hotblack Desiato

It's been a quiet July this year thankfully, but things are going to have to get a lot less crazy up there before any form of constitutional change in NI can even be contemplated.

We don't have a bad little country here at all (despite its flaws) so why jeopardise that to fulfil a misty-eyed closing time dream from 100 years ago?

Larbre34

I've thought about this for some years now.

Unification of the island is a chance for The Second Republic. A renewal of the Constitution for the next century of time, a reorganisation of central and local government to suit the people of the new State.

My thinking is as follows:

Ireland will be Ireland, it will have the tricolour as its national flag.

Uachtarán na hÉireann will be Head of State and guardian of the Constitution, much as he/she is now, with perhaps some expanded oversight for the Council of State, including maybe some democratic election to its membership.

I would abolish the Seanad and I'll expand on that further below.

The Dáil should become a unicameral parliament. It should take on more of a hybrid list system characteristic, to lessen the parish pump and embolden the Parliament as a legislature for national issues, not with a membership constantly watching their own arse over local matters. It should be capped at 200 members.

Stormont as an assembly would be abolished, further below...

As a consequence of the last three paragraphs, a complete reorganisation of the inherited local government systems of both Ireland and the former Northern Ireland would be needed, in favour of a stronger, more relevant, more democratic, more powerful regional government system.

This for me is the key to including the citizens of what was the 6 Counties, especially those not strongly of an Irish identity. It would also be key to manageable and sustainable growth of the population and economy into the future

I would establish 11 regions, which would maintain within, but supercede, the historical Counties.

Each region would have a capital city, nominated as the seat of the Assembly and centre of administration for that region, including emergency and advanced healthcare, policing, courts, planning, third level education, and so on.

Spread out across the region would be sustainably planned housing, farming, employment and investment, local enterprise and innovation, tourism and leisure, sports and community facilities and so on. The idea of all the above would be to allow people to live fully at or near to where they are from, if they so choose, and to access the big social services that we need at times of life, in a nearby City, all while minimising time wasted travelling long distances day in and out.

Each Regional Assembly would have perhaps 60-70 members full time, paid, elected every five years. From among their number they would elect a Chief Minister / Governor / Mayor, who would hold that position for the full term, unless deposed, and would be have strong democratic powers, underpinned in law and by the Assembly. No unelected official would be pre-eminent any longer.

The Assembly itself would have budgetary control over regional spending on devolved matters; basically everything except national finances, law and justice, foreign policy and defence, EU matters and such. However as I said above, policing and justice and health and social protection etc would be organised along regional lines, with strong representation and consultation roles for the Assembly.

The regions would be:

Dublin - Capital territory - population 1.5 million

Lakelands - Meath, Cavan, Monaghan, capital Navan - population 370,000

Southern Metro - Kildare and Wicklow. capital Naas - population 400,000

South East - Carlow, Kilkenny, Wexford - capital Kilkenny City - population 330,000

Mid-Ireland - Westmeath, Laois, Offaly - capital Athlone - population 270,000

South Munster - Cork, Kerry, Waterford - capital Cork City - population 850,000

North Munster - Tipperary, Limerick and Clare - capital Limerick City - population 500,000

West - Galway and Mayo - capital Galway City - population 420,000

North Midlands - Longford, Roscommon, Leitrim, Sligo - capital Sligo Town - population 230,000

North West - Donegal, Derry, Fermanagh, Tyrone - capital City of Derry - population 650,000

North East - Antrim, Down, Armagh, Louth - capital Belfast - population 1.45 million

dublincc2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120905387#Comment_120905387

The provincial boundaries of Ulster need to change post-reunification. Specifically Cavan needs to be removed and returned to Connaught (which it was always part of until the plantation) and Louth needs to be added back to Ulster (which it was always part of until the plantation). So still 9 counties. Ulster makes more geographical sense this way, the southern border of Ulster being the River Boyne is written in the ancient Gaelic annals.

dublincc2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120905904#Comment_120905904

Third Republic.

First Republic - 1919-1922

(Free State - 1922-1937)

Second Republic - 1922-20??

As for the flag, it will more likely than not be this:

Anthem changes of course, what it will be is unclear. Anything except Ireland’s Call is on the cards really.

President as above I disagree, the positions of Taoiseach/Tánaiste are abolished and the president becomes head of state and government.

Seanad absolutely agree. Useless entity.

As for counties etc, a lot of them need to be merged/abolished altogether.

Meath and Westmeath reunite. Western part of Offaly including Tullamore goes to it. The remainder of Offaly goes to Tipperary and Kildare. Laois is split between Carlow, Kildare and Kilkenny. Wicklow split with Dublin and Carlow, the latter of which would include Arklow. Cavan, Leitrim united to create Breffni.