United Ireland governing system

dublincc2 · 27-07-2023 12:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120902570#Comment_120902570

The same Oireachtas that removed the city statues from Kilkenny which had always been a city and conferred city status onto Galway which was never considered a city.

There is no conversation or debate to be had in this. City status in this part of the world is a much more complex and historical title, not a local government title or convenience. Galway is a large town and the city council should be abolished. All of Co. Galway should be run under one single county council.

dublincc2 · 27-07-2023 12:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120901864#Comment_120901864

The functions of the Dáil would be:

Making, changing, removing laws.
Accepting international contracts.
Discuss, increase or decrease budget and accept or reject the budget in the Dáil.
If the Dáil makes a law about a topic where the President has issued an executive order, parliamentary law overrides the decree.

Peregrinus · 27-07-2023 12:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120902947#Comment_120902947

I get that. It's somewhat similar to the relationship between the US President and the Congress, except that you've given the Dáil no say in the appointment of Ministers or other officials, and no power to hold them accountable. I'm just puzzled as to why you think this is a superior model.

Your criticims of the current model of the presidency seems to be (a) that it only exercises largely ceremonial functions, like the British monarch, but (b) it costs much, much less than the British monarchy. I struggle to see this as a very weighty criticism, to be honest, and certainly not as something which justifies so drastically reducing the power of the Oireachtas.

Hotblack Desiato · 27-07-2023 1:15pm

We keep being told the what, we keep asking the why and keep being ignored.

Podge_irl · 27-07-2023 1:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120902910#Comment_120902910

There is no conversation or debate to be had in this

You are correct there isn't. It is up to the democratically elected Oireachtas and I could not possibly care less what some historic monarch thought about it and it is farcical to suggest that is more relevant.

Dslatt · 27-07-2023 1:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120900530#Comment_120900530

Douglas Hyde was a founder of the Gaelic League, he played a huge part in our cultural revival.

Sean Kelly was a former Tanaiste and Minster for Finance, as well as other ministerial posts

Erskine Childers. also Tanaiste and was Minister for Health, as well as other ministerial posts

O'Dalaigh was Attorney General and Chief Justice

Patrick Hillery was Minister for Education and other ministerial posts as well as vice president of the European Commission.

Nobodies? Perhaps you should refrain from speaking about things you clearly know absolutely nothing about.

dublincc2 · 27-07-2023 4:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120903482#Comment_120903482

Hyde did nothing and was privately a monarchist.

Kelly - who?

Childers - who?

O’Dalaigh - who?

Patrick Hillery - played golf for 14 years and was somewhat noteworthy but stratospherically irrelevant in Irish political life.

None of them exercised any real power.

Higgins list of duties as president is basically a bargain-basement version of the duties of Charles III. A pointless figurehead and pen-pusher. We may as well have Charles as our head of state. The only difference is he isn’t elected every 7 years in a vote with a tiny turnout as we have here.

A new united Ireland must be a fresh start, which means abolishing the British-inspired parliamentary system and move to a presidential one. An elected president with real power like in the US, France or Turkey is the true mark of a republic.

Jim2007 · 27-07-2023 4:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058306438/united-ireland-governing-system

Right.... and of course this is all based on the assumption that we have very honest politicians that will make it work....

May be a good idea that you send a couple of years researching forms of government and perhaps then you'd understand just what a well designed democracy we actually have and why people would not want to give it. The voters have rejected, the abolitions for the PR system twice, the abolition of Seanad twice and the the lowering of the age requirement last time around. That should tell you that Irish voters have a good understand of how their democracy works, what would weaken it and they are not about to give up their sovereignty for what you are offering.

dublincc2 · 27-07-2023 8:56pm

The parliamentary system here is copy and pasted from the UK. The president is a role of convenience to undertake the duties that the British monarch would have undertaken if Ireland had remained in the UK.

In a united Ireland we should move away from this and reorganise our form of government.

Podge_irl · 27-07-2023 9:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120905232#Comment_120905232

At the risk of repeating myself, why?

What problems have you identified in our current system and what do your proposals do to address these problems?

Jim2007 · 27-07-2023 9:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120905232#Comment_120905232

Nope they are fundamentally different. First of all you can’t cut and past a constitution that does not exist. And Ireland like Switzerland is one of only two countries having a sovereign people, most have a sovereign parliament and in the case of the UK it is not even clear who the sovereign is! Parliament? The PM since he can use the King’s Prerogative to subvert parliament or even the Royal since the speaker and the PM have both accepted Charles & the Queen’s interference in the operation of parliament to their benefit, or possibly even the Privy Council.

It’s true that all of the former dominions borrow texts from each other at the drafting stage but the implication, administration and interpretation is different.

L1011 · 27-07-2023 9:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120900915#Comment_120900915

The result of a vote for reunification in NI would basically just be Dublin taking Westminster's role over Stormont for the short term. It could take decades after that to negotiate the final settlement.

the idea that it would just be a direct integration of NIs government with the ROI government; and with NIs county councils just becoming one with ours - they're far too small for starters - or even just quietly merging with DL/CN/MN in to one body - isn't plausible.

The use of the term "Ulster" is going to continue to possibly cause actual wars up there for decades yet; NI Republicans would not be impressed with suddenly finding themselves under an Ulster Provincial Council that would still have a huge Unionist bloc on it; and barring a few outliers the reaction in DL/MN/CN would be even worse.

L1011 · 27-07-2023 9:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120901792#Comment_120901792

Galway was given city status in 1986. You may be thinking of Kilkenny as the town that pretends its a city (and has specific legal protections for doing so).

Letters Patent do not exist in this country.

Musicrules · 27-07-2023 10:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120905387#Comment_120905387

Have you ever heard of Éire nua?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89ire_Nua#:~:text=6%20External%20links-,Ideology,by%20the%20British%20in%201922.

L1011 · 27-07-2023 10:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120905557#Comment_120905557

Yes, but it is about as plausible as the UVFs proposals for re-partition (and genocide after) in the 90s. And a huge element of it was out of hatred of the Dublin government as much as sensibility.

Musicrules · 27-07-2023 10:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120905562#Comment_120905562

It is plausible and don't forget that Ulster has a large Nationalist majority. Unionists will be treated with respect and will be welcomed into reunification. Things are moving on. The Alliance party are growing for example. This will not be the catastrophe some people want to make out. People want prosperity, they want strong, united communities. A united Ireland leads to that. Of course there will be stumbling blocks, that's why open discussion needs to happen and the pathway mapped out. This will be a great thing for our country. An amazing opportunity to create something that the generations after us will be forever grateful.

Hotblack Desiato · 27-07-2023 11:01pm

It's been a quiet July this year thankfully, but things are going to have to get a lot less crazy up there before any form of constitutional change in NI can even be contemplated.

We don't have a bad little country here at all (despite its flaws) so why jeopardise that to fulfil a misty-eyed closing time dream from 100 years ago?

Larbre34 · 27-07-2023 11:31pm

I've thought about this for some years now.

Unification of the island is a chance for The Second Republic. A renewal of the Constitution for the next century of time, a reorganisation of central and local government to suit the people of the new State.

My thinking is as follows:

Ireland will be Ireland, it will have the tricolour as its national flag.

Uachtarán na hÉireann will be Head of State and guardian of the Constitution, much as he/she is now, with perhaps some expanded oversight for the Council of State, including maybe some democratic election to its membership.

I would abolish the Seanad and I'll expand on that further below.

The Dáil should become a unicameral parliament. It should take on more of a hybrid list system characteristic, to lessen the parish pump and embolden the Parliament as a legislature for national issues, not with a membership constantly watching their own arse over local matters. It should be capped at 200 members.

Stormont as an assembly would be abolished, further below...

As a consequence of the last three paragraphs, a complete reorganisation of the inherited local government systems of both Ireland and the former Northern Ireland would be needed, in favour of a stronger, more relevant, more democratic, more powerful regional government system.

This for me is the key to including the citizens of what was the 6 Counties, especially those not strongly of an Irish identity. It would also be key to manageable and sustainable growth of the population and economy into the future

I would establish 11 regions, which would maintain within, but supercede, the historical Counties.

Each region would have a capital city, nominated as the seat of the Assembly and centre of administration for that region, including emergency and advanced healthcare, policing, courts, planning, third level education, and so on.

Spread out across the region would be sustainably planned housing, farming, employment and investment, local enterprise and innovation, tourism and leisure, sports and community facilities and so on. The idea of all the above would be to allow people to live fully at or near to where they are from, if they so choose, and to access the big social services that we need at times of life, in a nearby City, all while minimising time wasted travelling long distances day in and out.

Each Regional Assembly would have perhaps 60-70 members full time, paid, elected every five years. From among their number they would elect a Chief Minister / Governor / Mayor, who would hold that position for the full term, unless deposed, and would be have strong democratic powers, underpinned in law and by the Assembly. No unelected official would be pre-eminent any longer.

The Assembly itself would have budgetary control over regional spending on devolved matters; basically everything except national finances, law and justice, foreign policy and defence, EU matters and such. However as I said above, policing and justice and health and social protection etc would be organised along regional lines, with strong representation and consultation roles for the Assembly.

The regions would be:

Dublin - Capital territory - population 1.5 million

Lakelands - Meath, Cavan, Monaghan, capital Navan - population 370,000

Southern Metro - Kildare and Wicklow. capital Naas - population 400,000

South East - Carlow, Kilkenny, Wexford - capital Kilkenny City - population 330,000

Mid-Ireland - Westmeath, Laois, Offaly - capital Athlone - population 270,000

South Munster - Cork, Kerry, Waterford - capital Cork City - population 850,000

North Munster - Tipperary, Limerick and Clare - capital Limerick City - population 500,000

West - Galway and Mayo - capital Galway City - population 420,000

North Midlands - Longford, Roscommon, Leitrim, Sligo - capital Sligo Town - population 230,000

North West - Donegal, Derry, Fermanagh, Tyrone - capital City of Derry - population 650,000

North East - Antrim, Down, Armagh, Louth - capital Belfast - population 1.45 million

dublincc2 · 27-07-2023 11:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120905387#Comment_120905387

The provincial boundaries of Ulster need to change post-reunification. Specifically Cavan needs to be removed and returned to Connaught (which it was always part of until the plantation) and Louth needs to be added back to Ulster (which it was always part of until the plantation). So still 9 counties. Ulster makes more geographical sense this way, the southern border of Ulster being the River Boyne is written in the ancient Gaelic annals.

dublincc2 · 27-07-2023 11:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120905904#Comment_120905904

Third Republic.

First Republic - 1919-1922

(Free State - 1922-1937)

Second Republic - 1922-20??

As for the flag, it will more likely than not be this:

Anthem changes of course, what it will be is unclear. Anything except Ireland’s Call is on the cards really.

President as above I disagree, the positions of Taoiseach/Tánaiste are abolished and the president becomes head of state and government.

Seanad absolutely agree. Useless entity.

As for counties etc, a lot of them need to be merged/abolished altogether.

Meath and Westmeath reunite. Western part of Offaly including Tullamore goes to it. The remainder of Offaly goes to Tipperary and Kildare. Laois is split between Carlow, Kildare and Kilkenny. Wicklow split with Dublin and Carlow, the latter of which would include Arklow. Cavan, Leitrim united to create Breffni.

Iecrawfc · 27-07-2023 11:56pm

In all the countries in the world and you choose to copy the one with one of the most dysfunctional systems! What's option 2? copy the Westminster Model! Looking at US politics and society since the 80s it's about the last country in the world to look to for a sensible system of governance!

Larbre34 · 28-07-2023 12:19am

You haven't addressed the major negative of an executive head of state.

That their Cabinet is drawn from industry and academia, not elected by the people.

Irish people and a de facto technocracy would never be good fit. There is enough of a disconnect from politics as it is.

No, the Head of State shall be above politics and shall guard the enactment of the Constitution by the Parliamentary assembly and the agencies of the State. The Executive shall be elected by all the people. The Taoiseach shall nominate and chair that Executive, but be bound by its collective.

dublincc2 · 28-07-2023 12:38am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120906039#Comment_120906039

Even though the Dáil would have no role in confirming presidential appointments for the cabinet, a majority vote in the Dáil would overturn a presidential decree.

TDs could also table a motion requesting that ministers be investigated on allegations of perpetration of a crime or other misconduct regarding their duties.

The Dáil could also dismiss the president (and thus the whole cabinet) by voting for early presidential elections.

Peregrinus · 28-07-2023 3:35am

I'm still not seeing the problem with a ceremonial presidency. This is a common government structure, and is the norm in Europe. Of the 27 EU member states, 16 (including Ireland) are parliamentary republics with a largely ceremonial presidency, 6 are parliamentary monarchies with a ceremonial monarch, and 5 are semi-presidential republics where executive power is divided between a Prime Minister and Ministers who are accountable to Parliament and a President who is independent of Parliament. Not one is a fully presidential republic of the kind you propose. Presidential republics are mostly found in the Americas, in central Asia and in central Africa.

So, before telling us what you propose by way of a new system, you need to tell us why we need a new system. What's wrong with a parliamentary republic? What problem is your new system trying to fix? You've mentioned a couple of issues (possibility of an experienced president; lack of accountability of president) which your new system is clearly not trying to fix, and one issue (costs less than the British monarchy) that, frankly, doesn't look like a problem at all.

So, here's a challenge: without saying anything at all about you proposal for a new system, make an argument about why a parliamentary republic is not the right form of government for Ireland.

Hotblack Desiato · 28-07-2023 11:33am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120905938#Comment_120905938

Why?

Outside of rugby and GAA provinces are meaningless.

Hotblack Desiato · 28-07-2023 12:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120905985#Comment_120905985

That flag is horrible and British - straight off the UK royal standard 🙄

Nope.

We keep the flag otherwise we gift it to IRA knuckledraggers like the 70s and 80s all over again.

There's a reason it has orange on it.

dublincc2 · 28-07-2023 4:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120906205#Comment_120906205

Turkey recently voted to transfer from a parliamentary to presidential republic. It seems to be going well for them. You might not like Erdogan as a politician, but he is somebody who talks straight and gets the job done. He is a respected leader and power broker as we see in Ukraine. When Turkey had a ceremonial president and a PM, there was no such figure.

dublincc2 · 28-07-2023 4:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120907465#Comment_120907465

That will be the flag of a united Ireland.

The tricolour, while designed to be inclusive of both sides, has become indelibly associated with republican violence amongst practically all of the unionist community. It will never be accepted. They burn it on bonfires every year in case you didn’t know.

The green harp flag was the original Irish nationalist flag, used by the IPP amongst others. It was the flag of Ireland until 1916. It was never used by republican terrorists but the harp was used in British Army regiments. Many unionists themselves have suggested this on Twitter. It is distinctive on an international basis, instead of one of dozens of same-old tricolours. The bare-breasted Hibernia is a symbol of how far our society has come in terms of female equality and secularism.

I cannot possibly imagine another flag for a UI.