High Irish GDP is an illusion, Ireland is not that rich

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120888810#Comment_120888810

They might be more interested if people don't lead with "...may not be able to access the Social welfare system..."

Ardillaun

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120888087#Comment_120888087

Seriously? You think people under 20 are the same as those 20-40? As I tried to explain above, the data can be examined in many ways but shutting out the not so young will have serious political consequences. As an FG supporter I urge FFG to get moving on this ASAP. Let’s not sleepwalk into another property-related disaster.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120878931#Comment_120878931

For the record the big tech companies in Dublin do take a very small amount Irish grads each year, but they're the 1.1 guys, (the absolute best and brightest) and they start them off on €60-70k

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120889001#Comment_120889001

Do you think people who are 20 should have the same ownership statistics as those who are 30?

FFG have failed collectively on so many issues for so many years they have demolished their own support. They are only in power because SF failed to run enough candidates. I'm no fan of SF but the next election is theirs to lose.

Too many people are struggling in this "Rich" country.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120889309#Comment_120889309

No doubt. But you need more people than those with 1:1s.

But there is something wrong when you have so many graduates finding it tough to get a start and employers saying they can't find anyone.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120889385#Comment_120889385

You and I don't agree on much here but absolutely.

Companies have slashed their training budgets, have "entry-level" roles requiring 5-7 years experience, and say that they can not get anyone locally.

They are, often, the same business leaders who complain that colleges are not "producing" graduates suitable for the work force.

College is NOT a training house, for business. Higher education is not about developing a workforce, it is (as the name suggests) education. This goes for NUI/Trinity and the TUs. The Tech Universities have a more workplace slant but they are still education and not specific training for your random niche role.

All a degree does is show a general competency in the field of study. You want a worker? Train them

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120889414#Comment_120889414

Sorry but this is not the case (entirely) in IT. There are niches such as learning Active Directory which the colleges do not teach. but they do teach the fundamentals that are absolutely required in IT such as SQL, Java/Python/C#, how hardware works, networking, design models such as (Relational DB design), etc

Which are all absolutely critical in the field of IT. You need to understand them. If you know the above then you can learn all the other crap as you go by yourself without any formal training.

Mind you, there are a lot of people working in IT that have completely forgotten all the above and a crap!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120889480#Comment_120889480

I'm in IT myself. The colleges cover the fundamentals, most definitely, but they are nowhere near industry standard (nor would I expect them to be)

I'm not letting a random grad into a server room, without training. I don't care what kind of lab they have set up at home (often they are worse as they "know" everything")

Look at entry level "grad" friendly roles in cyber security. Wanting year of knowledge in a specific suite of tools, as oppsed to the tools the college used. That kind of crap. HR then actively screen out suitable candidates because they have experience in Firewall A instead of inhouse system B

Companies then complain that they found nobody, when a few weeks training would have been all which was needed.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120889480#Comment_120889480

".... you go by yourself without any formal training...."

That won't get you past the HR filter in many places.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120890144#Comment_120890144

perhaps I'm out of the loop a while...

Do people not start off on the IT Helpdesk for infra roles/Simple Data changes for Software Devs and progress on?

Edit: Oh wait all that's been outsourced now.... 🙄

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120889001#Comment_120889001

...sorry, its way too late, both ffg have failed to accept that their fundamental economic ideologies have completely failed, particularly in relation to property, it collapsed in 08, yet neither accepted this, theyre now completely fcuked, yet both are still trying to plough on with this primarily market lead approach, its never going to work, its failing in many other countries its been tried in, yet, no comprende! they is fcuked!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120890251#Comment_120890251

Yup, outsourced and those outsourcing companies have zero motivation to train you up

realitykeeper

I see Michael McGrath thinks the banks should help mortgage owners. This country borrowed 200 billion euro since 2008 to re blow the housing bubble. Was the 200 billion not enough?

Sam Russell

The GDP figure is at best a measure of income, not wealth.

If I start my first job at a very, very high salary, I am not in receipt of a single cent before my first pay cheque, so although I think myself well off, I am in fact broke. Even after my first year, I still am not rich because I have not built up any wealth. Even if I continue to get a high salary, if I spend it all on frippery, and borrow on the strength of my high salary to spend on more frippery, I will never be wealthy.

As I get older, I must build up savings and also actual possessions that have real value rather than spending on throwaway things - at least if I want to be wealthy. Having all my wealth in my home is not much use as I have to live somewhere, and so the value is not even slightly liquid.

We, as a nation, are a long way from being wealthy.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121058962#Comment_121058962

Maybe quote what you're referring to. McGrath said a lot of things recently.

Mr. teddywinkles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120881641#Comment_120881641

Just cause there listed as such with welfare doesn't mean they are or should be let near a construction site.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121059321#Comment_121059321

I think if you are on a high salary but not wealthy that not an issue of wealth but of money management.

There are people on huge salaries that exist month to month. That's got nothing to do with wealth.

Sam Russell

Money management is a problem that has beset this state.

Take the National Children's Hospital if you need an example.

It was first proposed in 1993, and now, thirty years later, it is not still not completed despite it becoming the most expensive hospital (per bed) in the world. Even though it is nearing completion, its cost is still not even closely known, nor is its opening date known. From the initial cost of €615 million is now expected to be north of €2 billion - much more than that.

If that was unusual in this state, then we would not have a problem. Or the scandal of the printer purchased by the Dail that was huge - so huge, it would not fit in the building it was to go into and ending costing a giddy fortune.

But look at the establishment of Irish water. Or the Beef Tribunal, or the Planning Tribunal, or any tribunal. Or the legal fees. Or the early start of the courts -11 am, and they finish at 4pm, with a break for lunch.

There are so many scandalous examples, it is no wonder we are not wealthy.

Flinty997

I don't disagree with the states Mismanagement. But that's a different issue.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121059703#Comment_121059703

Not really.

Charles Dickens's character Wilkins Micawber warned eloquently of debt's downside: “Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen pounds, nineteen shillings and six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pound nought and six pence, result misery.” 

Debt can blight your life - particularly if you continue to accumulate it. The same applies to a state - sort of. Their credit rating also has a bearing, as does the states growth protectory.

Flinty997

Sort of...

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121059821#Comment_121059821

The same absolutely does not apply to a state. There is just no point or sense in making the comparison.

Access to financing is important, but any correlation between that and overall debt levels is weak at best.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121058962#Comment_121058962

...yes, and again, modern political ideologies truly believes that financialisation is the key to providing our most critical of needs, such as housing, it clearly isnt, our governments continually approach of this method will simply never work, as one of the main tools of this method, i.e. credit, is simply used to inflate the price of such assets....

...which ultimately leads to credit fueled asset bubbles, therefore credit fueled asset busts, hence the need to bailout the whole system when this occurs, i.e. the requirement of moving the excess credit from the private domain, into the public domain....

Sam Russell

Well, I hope no-one comes calling to my door expecting me to cough up my share of the national debt.

What is it? €3 trillion or €600 k each. That is a massive amount.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121060087#Comment_121060087

It is nowhere near €3 trillion, you're off by an order of magnitude. Also significant amounts of the debt will be owned domestically. And why in the name of god would anyone come looking for "your" share of it, that's not remotely how any of this works.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121060087#Comment_121060087

Last I checked it's around 240 billion, and national debt is not like private debt. Most of it is long term and it's holders don't need the government to "pay it off suddenly", as it typically represents an investment or collateral for them, and it's key for domestic investors and institutions, as well as the normal running of the economy.

The figure to watch is debt-to-GDP (and some other factors), which for us, at the moment is around 44%. To put that in perspective, Norwegian natl debt is around the same level (to GDP), and they could afford to "pay it off" four times over with their sovereign wealth fund, however as mentioned, that's not how natl debt works.

As a country we're double A rated which means rating agencies don't see us having any issue servicing our debt.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121060949#Comment_121060949

Debt to GDP is an inaccurate figure for Ireland due to companies using ireland as a tax Haven. Irish GDP includes many billions upon billions of euros worth of "economic activity" that is not.irish and has not occurred here, and the state sees little benefit from that aside from a % of corporate profits. In many cases we see no revenue at all from some of the tax "on shoring" that occurs heres such as intellctual property. Or aircraft leasing, a huge (in monetary terms) industry here in ireland, but its impact on GDP is massively overinflated.

The CSO have long recognised this which is why GNI* is used instead of GDP for all inter-country comparisons in Irelands case.

Debt to GNI* is 109%

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121061379#Comment_121061379

Thought our debt to GNI was currently around 80%.

Geuze

From the NTMA:

crusd

To those who continually misunderstand/ misrepresent the national debt. As long as in the long term the growth in the economy exceeds the growth in debt it is not a problem at all, no matter how large.

The economic benefits of debt outweigh the cost when it needs to be repaid. It’s why, as has been pointed out, Norway, with a massive sovereign wealth fund still uses debt as part of its financial model. It’s cheaper to access funds on the bond market than use available funds.

It’s not like a mortgage, but even with a mortgage, you tend to take it out when you are younger, and your earnings will tend to rise while the mortgage remains stable. And at the end you have an asset. What the debt alarmists would have you do instead is rent for life, as sure that 300k mortgage is more than you earn in a year.