High Irish GDP is an illusion, Ireland is not that rich

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120864667#Comment_120864667

"Outside of the southeast" is a pretty definitive restriction though. The vast majority of Irish nationals in the UK are in London. A highly paid professional in Dublin can afford to buy closer to Dublin than their equivalent in London - albeit the transport is not as good.

I understand the frustration, I think we need to build significantly more housing, but also a lot of Irish people who leave go to places that are basically just as bad on that front. But London is bigger and more fun, and Australia has a completely different climate and lifestyle and there is nothing we can do to compete with that.

Murph85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120861083#Comment_120861083

These Cars are likely on pcp... a rich country with third world infrastructure.... David mcwilliams had a good article on it recently...

The cost of living here is insane, in general wages are low, any embarking over 40k you lose half your salary. What will you get fir this tax? Very little, appalling health service, services and Infrastructure. You're effectively paying fir a welfare wonderland and free housing etc fir others, that you will never benefit from... Unless your parents bail you out, you'll be effectively poor...

beachhead

With a national debt curently at 270.65 billion and rising.Ireland must be rich,alright

moon2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120864885#Comment_120864885

https://www.ntma.ie/business-areas/funding-and-debt-management/statistics/debt-projections

the graph doesn't even go high enough to display 270 billion. At least use the correct figures when getting annoyed over debt!

Charles Babbage

Ireland is not fabulously rich, but is doing rightly. GDP per capita is twice other places and GNI* is about 54% of that, so we are broadly similar to other prosperous European countries. If the statistics that are used are bollix, that is not our fault. Debt of 270.65 billion means that it is €50K per head, it is not rising, it is falling as the government has a surplus. By comparison the USA has debt of almost $100K per head.

This stuff about everyone wanting to leave is not borne out by the stats, the last CSO figures show more Irish citizens came into the state than left it. Some people always want to see the world.

Everyone complains about health, yet life expectancy is one of the highest in Europe, so it is not the "third world" that it is often referred to on boards.ie.

There is an infrastructure deficit, but housing output is increasing, and possibly the government will actually build a metro and other public transport when they get up off their arse and stop fiddling with bicycle lanes.

Unfortunately, people like sound bites and giving out and the likes of McWilliams that do know better still put forward headlines that will get lots of likes on twitter, if that requires some misrepresentation of the data then thats what we get.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120864821#Comment_120864821

Cost of living is insane? Based on what? Rent, maybe, if you're renting in a city?

Food has become more expensive, but nowhere near insane. Bills are expensive, but still a comparatively small amount of your salary.

Clothes, transports is all the same, petrol is back to where it was in 2019.

Lose half your income over 40k? If you are then you're doing something wrong. Start a pension, join your company's salary-forgone scheme, and invest in EIIS. Be tax efficient and claw back what you can from the government.

The vast majority are doing very well in Ireland. Statistics show this, even if some people's sentiment is the opposite.

The usual gripes get trotted out;

Oh the health service is bad... When was the last time you were in hospital and were refused treatment because it was too busy?

Oh infrastructure is bad... How exactly are you affected by this and how could it be better?

People on welfare have it so easy... if that was anyway true then EVERYONE would be on welfare.

And the usual "young people are emigrating" ehh... to where exactly? No matter where you go you're going to get taxed. There's no free ride.

I had a friend who was planning on going to Michigan because the tax is less. Yeah, federal tax is are 22%, but factor in city tax at 2%, state tax at 4%, and property tax at 2%, plus healthcare, and various insurances and you're no better off that in Ireland.

People say these things with no context. "Oh X in Ireland is bad" and it's usually easily avoidable, or there's no where that does it well.

NIMAN

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120864593#Comment_120864593

Or Australia, or Canada, or the US.

Ardillaun

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120861448#Comment_120861448

Do as many Scandinavians leave as Irish do?

Ardillaun

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120861083#Comment_120861083

I think that proves Ireland is expensive, especially for young people. There seems to be a marked generational difference on how people see things. Young voters are clearly not happy with the status quo.

Peregrinus

It should be pointed out that, while our high GDP doesn't feed directly into living standards in the way that it might in other economies, its not completely fictional and its not irrelevant. It does feed into the tax base. Despite having a very low rate of Corporation Tax, Ireland collects more Corporation Tax per capita than does the UK - more than three times as much, in fact. So that grossly inflated GDP does have benefits for us.

techman1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120865115#Comment_120865115

It's obvious that the government is benefitting from collecting corporation tax from these companies global profits. However you would imagine that tax bonanza would be used to reduce the tax burden on the squeezed middle, those on 40 to 60 thousand euros like other rich countries. Instead the squeezed middle in Ireland is more heavily taxed than our European counterparts and that basket case economy the UK (joke obviously)

We also don't spend that tax bonanza on infrastructure but waste it away on highly inefficient public services and very high welfare payments .

WesternZulu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120864821#Comment_120864821

I think you're being massively hyperbolic. Wages are not low, wages are very high in Ireland and our progressive tax system lessens inequality. PCP is used extensively in other countries, it's surprising it took so long to take hold in Ireland.

Our health service isn't as bad as it is often made out to be. Not perfect! But comparable internationally to the NHS.

If you think our infrastructure is third world I suggest you go to an actual third world country and compare. We have more roads and more rail per head of population than the UK. It's absolutely not perfect and it's a disgrace that Dublin hasn't a metro and that Cork and Limerick haven't a motorway connecting them but a sense of perspective is badly needed.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120865467#Comment_120865467

those on 40 to 60 thousand euros like other rich countries. Instead the squeezed middle in Ireland is more heavily taxed than our European counterparts and that basket case economy the UK (joke obviously)

Their marginal tax rate is higher than many other countries, but their total tax burden is not.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120865112#Comment_120865112

More Norwegians leave than Irish. Not as many Finns though Sweden is a standard destination for young Finns to move to. The disparity between Finland and Sweden is not really comparable to that between Ireland and the UK though.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120864751#Comment_120864751

I feel the same way about low income housing as I do about extremely high level "executive" housing or whatever you want to call it. I'll be living in neither, but more housing is more housing and anything that increase supply will help in the current situation.

Yes, people can more easily afford to live in Birmingham or Manchester or Glasgow. But for the most part that's not where they are going - they are going to London.

None of this is to undermine the reality of the issues. They exist and need a lot of work. But young people have been leaving Ireland and will continue to leave Ireland no matter the economic situation at home due to massive pull factors.

Sam Russell

I know someone who worked in London and was on a very good salary. For family reasons they moved to Northern England in a large city, and although the rent was lower, no job was available at even 50% of their salary. Consequently, moved back to Ireland and is now on the equivalent London salary.

If you are a home owner, then life is better in most places, particularly if you have owned the home for some time, and particularly, have little or no mortgage.

The problem with housing in Ireland (and Britain) is that local authority house building largely stopped in the 80s. The need for it did not stop - it had to be provided by the private sector - without the legal protection afforded to the tenants. It is commonly estimated that 30% or so of people require such housing. So some of those cannot afford the rents and become homeless, or require substantial subsidy from the state and this costs much more than social housing provided by the state.

The shortage of homes had led to continuous rise in the price of houses, and the cost of building those houses.

So we are rich but not wealthy.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120865505#Comment_120865505

That is because in other countries, there is income tax and social insurance on low wages.

Podge_irl

Housing in Ireland is a disaster. But there are similar problems everywhere Irish people are going to also! I just don't think the percentage of young people voicing an interest in leaving (which is not remotely matched by the amount actually leaving anyway) is a particularly good barometer of the country's health.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120865710#Comment_120865710

Yes, Ireland's tax system is bad. More people should be brought into the tax net and the top rate entry point raised, though ultimately for someone on 50k+ I don't think their overall tax burden should change.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120865656#Comment_120865656

Or, to be more precise, younger people <40 are not wealthy. The rate of home ownership in Ireland is actually quite high and one problem the UK is having in particular now is that interest rate rises aren't having the inflation curbing impact they might because a huge percentage of homes are owned outright (so again younger people who have managed to buy property on big mortgages are being hit again to appease older people).

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120865467#Comment_120865467

While the squeezed middle, as you put it, pays high marginal rates of income tax in Ireland, by comparison with other developed economies they pay relatively little in the way of property tax and other capital taxes. That, perhaps, is what the Corporation Tax bonus finances.

If we look at overall tax burdens, Ireland is probably about mid-range for OECD economies. But we are overweight in income taxes and underweight in property taxes, capital taxes and social security taxes.

techman1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120867677#Comment_120867677

Yes I agree we have very low property taxes which actually inflates the property prices, higher property taxes would hit the wealthy pensioners and might encourage them to sell big expensive houses ,however we have very high investment taxes on shares and ridiculous taxation regime regarding ETFs which nobody else has.

Also an article in the independent this evening says that the government is now not going to give a 1000 euro tax break to the squeezed middle workers, however the welfare bonanza and child benefit top ups will go ahead. On top of that the fuel excise increases will also go ahead penalising those workers that have to drive to work everyday and were the essential workers keeping the country open during Covid.

maccored

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120860982#Comment_120860982

look around you. we live in a country where almost everyone is employed - but the pay is so low some people have three jobs. We live in generally a low paid economy. there are many high salaries obviously, but I'd say more people wore for a weekly wage than a monthly salary. There IS money, but only a small percentage have it.

Ardillaun

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120866219#Comment_120866219

It’s a good barometer for them. Ireland just dumbly followed what the Brits did on property and created a mess it should have reconsidered with the crash.

Ardillaun

Here’s a problem with Ireland’s high rate of home ownership:

Ireland has one of the biggest gaps in home ownership between younger and older people in western Europe, a new report has found, even as housing here appears to remain relatively affordable overall compared with elsewhere.

Close to 80 per cent of people over the age of 40 in Ireland own their home, according to the report published by the Economic and Social Research Institute (ESRI), yet barely a third of adults younger than 40 are homeowners.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/2023/07/20/ireland-has-one-of-lowest-rates-of-home-ownership-for-under-40s-esri-says/

Charles Babbage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120871352#Comment_120871352

Wages are decent in Ireland for the most part and that's the income the government knows about. And of course they have increased since 2021.

Charles Babbage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120873145#Comment_120873145

That isn't a problem with high rate of home ownership, but a reason for it to be higher. This is a bad period for housing to be sure.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120864469#Comment_120864469

First of all national debt is not like personal debt. Secondly the better measure is debt-to gdp, we're currently around 59% debt to GDP ratio which puts us on a par with e.g. Germany and the Netherlands

For reference, our debt-to-gdp in 2013 was almost 120%

For even more reference, take Norway. They have a sovereign wealth fund of almost 1.4 trillion. In 2021 their national debt was around 200 billion. They can easily afford to "pay their debt" so why don't they? Because, again, national debt is not personal debt, there are many economic, monetary and fiscal reasons for a country to borrow money.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120864587#Comment_120864587

It's not a lack of empathy. It is sad. It's just not unusual to older generations. Emigration was just par for the course, a rite of passage. It's a lot easier to travel and stay in touch these days.

techman1

First of all national debt is not like personal debt. Secondly the better measure is debt-to gdp, we're currently around 59% debt to GDP ratio which puts us on a par with e.g. Germany and the Netherlands

But the whole point of this thread is that our GDP is grossly inflated by the global earnings of US multinationals. Other posters then rigorously point out oh you should be using the CSO statistic of GNI* which is half of GDP with multinationals earnings stripped out.

Then when high irish national debt is discussed, Oh no the proper measurement is debt to GDP but our GDP is inflated 100% by global earnings of multinationals. We can't have it both ways. Those global corporations aren't going to step in to help service the debt when the **** hits the fan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120864821#Comment_120864821

We're not massively indebted because of welfare or social housing. Best thing capitalism did is make the mid and lower tiers turn on each other, for the scraps of an imaginary trickle down