Disputing crossing red traffic light ticket

innocent_lover

Hi, i have a dash cam video to show I didn’t jump red traffic light, can i use it in court without any legal help with me. If i present this evidence in court what things I should keep in my mind before I present this(like not edited etc). Unfortunately date on footage is wrong but i have video of garda pulling me over.

can i upload video here to take any opinion from you guys before presenting that video in court ? Thanks

kirk.

Is it all 1 sequence showing you not jumping the light and Garda pulling you over ?

Don't know on the admissibility, solicitor time there

kirk.

Post the video anyhow

Spook_ie

Just be aware that failing to stop at the stop line and crossing it by 3 or 4 feet is still technically a failure. Also if you don't stop at the first stop line of an advanced stop line (cyclebox) you can still be guilty of failing to stop.

Del2005

If your video shows the lights going amber and you not slowing down it could go against you, even if the light is green you should be slowing down as the light is only going to go amber then red.

It all depends on how many penalty points you have now. It's a 3 point offence so won't too badly affect your insurance if you don't have any. To fight it you'll need to at least talk to a solicitor, you don't want to present evidence to back up the Garda's case, and take a day off work.

innocent_lover

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1iA_NEP3CT3rn1k3H06xmUkjVGH38K2Wz/view?usp=drivesdk

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1EJnQ6Ma9Q-Tl4z4bYUoV4JEumlv1tg1O/view?usp=drivesdk

Am i missing something here? Its intersection where you turn right from Guild street towards N wall quay. Her point is there is no box so I shouldn’t proceed but there are 100 of intersections in Dublin where there is no box for turning right and if i stay behind line, i will be sitting there untill next day

pat_sconce

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120833510#Comment_120833510

she needs to go back to templemore and learn BASIC driving procedure. I'd send this to the local superintendent and make a complaint about the stop. She rally does not have a clue and it needs to be brought to the attention of her superiors

Ronney

Interesting one, what is the wording on your summons?

innocent_lover

I haven’t received yet, but she said i will be receiving 3 points and 80 fine for jumping red traffic light. But i am not going to pay for it. Why should i suffer for garda incompetence. If i have to pay for solicitor services still it’s not fair for me as I haven’t done anything wrong.

irony was that they were 3 officers in car, first she said there is no right turn there and I pointed to here there is and i made legal turn and she said ,are you trying to argue with us. She then took my licence and said i will be receiving fine for traffic light. I have video of that as well when she said there is no right turn.

innocent_lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120833538#Comment_120833538

How do I find out there local station?I don’t have any of there details. I was stopped on North wall quay(in front of spencer hotel) i think it is Dublin-3

Ronney

Wait for the fine/summons, until then dont worry about it (it may never appear).

MacDanger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120833510#Comment_120833510

Looks exactly as you're taught to proceed at right turns for your driving test - halfway across, wait for oncoming traffic to pass and then complete the turn. She'd only have a point if you were the second car through.

Will be interesting to see if you actually receive the summons or not.

Do you have the whole video clip as a single video or only in two as posted here?

liamog

In terms of your turn, I'd say your absolutely in the right. It only looks like your late crossing the opposite side of the road because of the car on the other side of the road running an actual red light.

The positioning via the camera does make it look like you've drove up to the advanced stop line for bikes which means you have run the red light at the start of the video.

Patrick2010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120833510#Comment_120833510

If you stay behind the line won't you be blocking traffic going straight?

innocent_lover

IMG_0518.jpeg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120834064#Comment_120834064

I wasn’t blocking any traffic going straight. Here is google pics of that junction

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120833538#Comment_120833538

He clearly drive through a red light. The guard did nothing wrong.

BASIC driving procedure does not allow people to drive through red lights 🙄

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120833601#Comment_120833601

It's in the store street area, but that doesn't mean the gardai are stationed there, they could be from anywhere.

It was harsh, it's a crap junction, but the video shows you driving through a red light. I wouldn't assume you will get a ticket anyway, will probably never appear.

pat_sconce

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120833601#Comment_120833601

Almost certainly Store Street

Chief Super = Patrick McMenamin

Her point that there is no box is simply ridiculous. The only time you do not proceed is if there is a red filter light. She does not know basic junction etiquette and how many other people will she issue tickets to for her misunderstanding of one of the most basic driving manoeuvres there is.

Ronney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120834155#Comment_120834155

I got summonsed for breaking a red light once. The summons for the offence was something along the lines of passing the white line without the correct signal to do so.

In this case he passed the white line while the light was green so no offence committed

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120834217#Comment_120834217

The offence is driving through a red light!

Ronney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120834232#Comment_120834232

The light was green when passed

innocent_lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120834013#Comment_120834013

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_Olkz7fcPuf55jytWeyIXYoqPr097Pd7/view?usp=drivesdk

Thats 2nd part of video when i am making turn. Sorry about radio noise in video but you can hear garda from 0.38 sec where she first said there is no right turn (but there is)and at end of video, garda said i made turn on red light then saying are you arguing with me and then ask for my licence.

Finally she give me my licence back in 2nd video which I uploaded earlier then try to explain me because there is no box i have to stay behind the line.

Spook_ie

It's a yellow box junction. Should be end of story if people understand/read the regulations about YB junctions.

Which direction did the Garda car arrive from? I See one crossing left right but I imagine it wasn't that one. If they were behind then they are likely doing you for crossing the white line at the start of the cyclebox.

Miscreant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120834155#Comment_120834155

The OP was clearing the junction they had already occupied while the light was green. This is perfectly allowable and they were already past the "stop" line for the light and took up a position to turn right while also occupying what looks like yellow hatch markings in the junction. If the OP had stayed where they were when the light went red, they would have been causing an obstruction in the junction and impeding traffic flow!

The Garda in question here should have gone after the last car through the junction in the oncoming direction as they actually did go through a red light!

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120834325#Comment_120834325

What? I must have watched a different video to you.......

markpb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120834199#Comment_120834199

That's not how junctions work. One car turning right is allowed to drive past the stop line and enter the junction while they have a green light. When the light goes red and the junction is clear (and all the red light runners on the opposite side have gone), that driver is allowed to proceed to clear the junction. The red light no longer applies because the driver is past the stop line at that time.

Ronney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120834382#Comment_120834382

Or you dont understand the rules of the road....

pat_sconce

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120834232#Comment_120834232

I really suggest you read up on the rules of the road.

Here's the paragraph

"If you wish to turn right at a set of traffic lights that has an arrow to the right, drive into the junction when you see a green light, taking care not to block any oncoming traffic. Then, when it is safe, finish your turn"

also from Aviva

"This is one instance when it is legal to drive through a red light because if you have entered the junction on a green light you are deemed to be in charge of the junction at that stage and you may complete your right turn even if the lights have changed to red."

Spook_ie

For suvigirl

https://www.rsa.ie/docs/default-source/road-safety/r1---rules-of-the-road/ruleoftheroad_book-for-web.pdf?sfvrsn=b5d57830_7

page130

For innocent lover

Page 74

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120834382#Comment_120834382

No you watched the same video but you don’t understand what you’re talking about. I pray to god you don’t have a licence.

When approaching a junction like this one, you must not pass the white lines at the traffic lights while they are red. When they turn green, you can continue, however, if you are turning right like in this case and the light changes you must wait for traffic on either side to pass first before you continue. Basically continue your turn if/when it’s safe to do so.

You don’t sit in the yellow box like a clown til the lights green again. Like surely you’re aware you do not stop in the yellow box?

Are you that garda by chance? 😂

kdevitt

OP is clearly in the right, fully entitled to take that position in the yellow box and to complete the manouvre. I wouldn't wait for a summons or points to arrive - I'd get straight into the station. If they won't play ball then you'll probably need to get your solicitor involved, which is quite obviously a pain - but your footage seems pretty conclusive.

markpb

OP, you sat very far back in the junction when the light was green. The guard may have mistakenly thought that you only passed the stop line after the light went red.

I would usually move into the centre of the junction, in the yellow box. That gives you better sightlines and makes your presence more obvious to drivers on your left and right.

innocent_lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120834373#Comment_120834373

They were behind me on guild street, due to camera position its looks like i have cross cyclebox but I didn’t. In 2nd and 3rd video you can hear them i made turn when it was red. So they are not talking about crossing cyclebox but making turn. Infact you can hear her saying I shouldn’t proceed because there is no right turn box and its yellow lines😔

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120834618#Comment_120834618

You cannot stop inside a yellow box.

duh never mind. The OP was turning right, which permits it my mistake 😎

Spook_ie

The one thing that isn't absolutely clear from that clip is if traffic was backed up to the right on the Quay.

If it were then you shouldn't enter the box junction, as if you couldn't clear the junction then you'd be blocking it.

innocent_lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120834653#Comment_120834653

i have uploaded 3rd video where you can see when i made turn and there was no traffic turning right on quays

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120834555#Comment_120834555

There is no yellow box in that video.

And you can stop in a yellow box when turning right, everyone knows that.

Edit! Watched it again, I see the box, apologies

Miscreant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120834873#Comment_120834873

There is a yellow junction box in the video. Look again.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120834918#Comment_120834918

Yes, I did! I see it now👍

geotrig

lights.jpg

I don't know the junction ands its hard see it in the video but looking at google maps it looks like there is a right /left turn set of light as well as a standard straight on set of lights , i think that is your problem

Buffman

OP, like most other people on here I was watching the video and waiting to tell you what you did wrong, but you're 100% in the right and didn't do anything wrong.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120834063#Comment_120834063

The 'bicycle' symbol road marking is well worn away to invisible at this junction and it could be argued the 'bike box' has no legal standing.

Spook_ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120835015#Comment_120835015

Not really, when the centre green light is lit ( unless there is a red lit arrow Or other signage ) then the junction is open for R/L/Straight on.

28064212

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120834873#Comment_120834873

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120834918#Comment_120834918

The existence of a yellow box makes absolutely no difference to the OP's situation. Regardless of whether there is a yellow box or not, when you get a green light at a junction like that, you move out into the junction (as far as you can before you need to start moving into the oncoming lane). At that point, the lights no longer apply to you. The red light is to stop you entering the junction - once you're in it, the only thing that stops you completing your turn is oncoming traffic (which has right of way), or if there is stationary traffic in your target lane (meaning you would be blocking oncoming traffic).

The yellow box is completely irrelevant in this case

innocent_lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120835015#Comment_120835015

But I didn’t get any filter green light. It was normal green light. I know if i had got straight only green light I shouldn’t proceed forward. But in this instance i made correct decision by proceeding forward

geotrig

I'm not disagreeing, its a odd set of strange lights but the fact that there is a full on green and "no lane red Light "still has me thinking you were ok /right I'm just saying that this is probably where the garda issue arose ,maybe they got the Turn lights afterwards and assumed you jumped the light and maybe they are not too familiar with the junction either.

innocent_lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120835256#Comment_120835256

Actually there was no filtered green light after i passed. The only time you see filtered green light on that junction is when bridge is closed for traffic(going south from north). I known that because i work close to that bridge.

XT1200

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120834382#Comment_120834382

Ihope that is what your problem is and not that you do not know the basic rules of the road. I hope you do not drive any motorised vehicle.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120835116#Comment_120835116

The bicycle symbol isn't what controls your requirement to stop at the first stop line. A vehicle cannot cross a stop line that is associated with a traffic light whilst that light is red.

Bicycles are allowed to approach the 2nd stop line because it's entered from a cycle lane and is effectively the first stop line the cycle meets before reaching the lights.

In this case the op clarified that it was just the bad camera angle that makes it appear as if they rolled through the first stop line.

Patrick2010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120834152#Comment_120834152

I know, I’m agreeing you did nothing wrong. In the absence of a filter light you had to move into the junction or you’d be there all night and no cars behind could go straight

Miscreant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120835207#Comment_120835207

There is nowhere in my posts where I said that the yellow box made a difference or bore any relevance at all. I merely stated that it is there.

The OP correctly entered the junction while waiting to turn right and therefore had to clear it after the traffic signal had gone red. The Garda in this case is in error in handing out a penalty and if I were the OP, I would definitely be disputing any sanction given, considering the video evidence on hand.

HazeDoll

OP did what I was taught to do when learning to drive. I hate sitting out there exposed like that in a junction, I always feel like I'm in the way and about to get honked at. I frequently remind myself that I'm doing what the driving instructor told me to do.

If OP hadn't moved into the junction, how many cycles of the traffic lights would have passed before an opportunity came to turn right? It could literally be hours! You could pull up there at 8am and still be sitting there in the afternoon.