Jean Kleyn N/IQ

System

This discussion was created from comments split from: Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120824096#Comment_120824096

It was the same around the 6 nations, the framing was that if Ireland didn't win the grand slam it was down to extended squad selections.

Surprised that dropping back into this thread several weeks later that some still haven't gotten over Kleyn's decision.

In hindsight I shouldn't be that some will never reach the acceptance stage of grief, that Kleyn will never add to his whopping 5 caps for Ireland.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120831704#Comment_120831704

It was the same around the 6 nations, the framing was that if Ireland didn't win the grand slam it was down to extended squad selections.

Can you point to a single post that said as much?

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120831817#Comment_120831817

If you can provide a decent search function on this site I'd be happy to.

The general tone in Ireland threads and on social media when players who wear a certain colour provincial jersey do not get picked is that Ireland better not lose or it proves Farrell was wrong - even when his decisions only relate to extended squads and likely would have minimal to no difference on a given result.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120831892#Comment_120831892

I think it's fair to say tone can be notoriously difficult to infer, especially over text. (it's why I asked for a specific example, rather than tone).

It's possible to be extremely pleased with how Farrell and co are doing, while also thinking he's gotten some decisions wrong.

Neil3030

Ah yes, "tone" and "framing".

Or, to perhaps put it more honestly, "narratives which, in lieu of actual evidence, rely on little more than my own unbridled biases".

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120831985#Comment_120831985

Thanks to twitter actually having a somewhat functional search capability it took seconds to find this that nearly verbatim post that match 'Ireland better not lose', like I claimed was going round regarding an extended squad decision during the 6 nations.

Now that we have some evidence, it might be timely to take a moment to reflect on 'unbridled biases' that might be feeding the conversation about Kleyn and the other players who have caused similar hyperbole over the last year.

https://twitter.com/threeredkings/status/1627689077418995714?s=20

Neil3030

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120832346#Comment_120832346

Your claim was that such comments were also on here. In the Ireland thread, specifically.

Can you substantiate this?

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120831945#Comment_120831945

It's possible to be extremely pleased with how Farrell and co are doing, while also thinking he's gotten some decisions wrong.

It's also possible to be extremely displeased with Farrell, and many are.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120832603#Comment_120832603

I can only ask if you can point to these posts?

Because criticism of Farrell does not equate to being extremely displeased with Farrell.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120832666#Comment_120832666

Really?

I mean, there's this, from today; I'll be in two minds who to support in this upcoming world cup

There's this, from the weekend. This all seems like hubris to me. 

And this Kleyn bossing the Auzzies in the Rugby championship calls his judgement of not even bringing him into extended training camps into question.

That's from the last 48 hours on boards.ie, from regular posters, I haven't even started with the re-regs yet. If you want me to go back to a time when we were actually naming squads and playing matches, I'll find you a lot more.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120832716#Comment_120832716

Ok, the first quote one, that's just a poor take imo. But I think vast, vast majority wouldn't be anywhere near that take.

The latter 2 quotes seem to fall into the "criticism" bucket to me. And it's specific with regards Kleyn.

That's not the same as being more broadly extremely displeased with Farrell.

Edit: I know we’ve had this discussion before FFF, but I’m happy to take it to PM if you want so as not to derail the thread further.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120832791#Comment_120832791

The only way I can answer this is by digging up reams and reams of previous posts, and for what? We both know they're there. You might not agree with them, but they are.

I'm sorry now but saying the national coach not picking a guy is 'hubris' is not specific to Kleyn. It is a very clear criticism of the coach's approach and state of mind.

I am not derailing the thread. You asked me for the evidence, I gave it to you. But yeah, we can leave it there.

CIARAN_BOYLE

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120832396#Comment_120832396

No he can't. Not because its false but because the search function on boards.ie is terrible.

The boards.ie community is a broad church and there are people of all opinions.

There are people with such opinions. There are people expressing those opinions.

Unless he wanted to spend several hours searching manually he won't find it. I think everyone has better things to be doing with themselves. Any statement found will be written off as that's just one person and irrelevant anyway.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120832877#Comment_120832877

There are. But are there many? That are extremely displeased??

I really don’t think there are. The Kleyn argument is the perfect microcosm of it.

There are a cohort that were pro-Kleyn getting a call up. They were being painted as being outraged and causing pages of discussion when the reality is there were just as many posters arguing against.

And I daresay that back-and-forth is then being perceived as something it’s not.

Neil3030

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120832877#Comment_120832877

The claims I want evidence for are those that speak in general terms. It's a fair request to make when the fans of your province are being baselessly imputed as some kind of sinister mob. On this page alone:

"The general tone in Ireland threads and on social media when players who wear a certain colour provincial jersey do not get picked is that Ireland better not lose or it proves Farrell was wrong"

"It's also possible to be extremely displeased with Farrell, and many are."

These are not users looking to highlight a subset of a "broad church". And if said comments form the "general tone" and can be attributed to "many" users, then why would they need "several hours searching manually" for examples?

These are very targeted remarks with the intention of painting Munster fans as against Farrell and wishing for the Irish team to fail.

And such baseless, shameless nonsense should not flow unchallenged because of a poorly coded website.

Buddy Bubs

I like Kleyn he's a better player than in 2019 and in my opinion, he should be in the Ireland squad picked by Farrell and his assistants. But I agree with him on 40 odd of the 45 and I'll prob agree with all but 2 or 3 of the final squad, and I'd assume most people will too.

How this can lead to people being displeased with him is beyond me, the coaching team are doing a great job and know a hell of a lot more than any of us here about the plan to win the world cup.

I'd guess there were advanced stage talks with kleyn expressing his wishes to switch to SA, and once that was known he was out of Ireland contention. Good luck to Kleyn in a bok Jersey, i hope he makes world cup on a personal level for him. And that he plays against Ireland, himself and Snyman in the 2nd row together at some stage.

Obviously I want us to smash the boks on the day though

Former Former Former

I am not trying to "paint" Munster fans as anything. I am a Munster fan.

If some fans (of any province) are embarrassed by the minority who missed the 'Team of Us' memo, I can understand that, but that doesn't mean it isn't a thing.

Don't ask questions if you might not like the answers.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120832396#Comment_120832396

Ah, good old moving of the goal posts:

Step 1: Imply a poster doesn't have any 'actual evidence'

Step 2: Poster provides 'actual evidence' that nearly word for word matches the original claim

Step 3: Respond with 'No, no... not that kind of evidence... provide me another type'

If you want to talk about 'unbridled biases' influencing this topic, I'm sure you feel it is completely coincidental that the vast majority of posters come from the same province who several weeks later still haven't gotten over the fact that a 5 cap Irish international was allowed to change their allegiance to their country of birth and the team they dreamed to play for as a child.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120833033#Comment_120833033

I'd guess there were advanced stage talks with kleyn expressing his wishes to switch to SA, and once that was known he was out of Ireland contention.

This speculation has been suggested on here a number of times at this point.

But what we actually do know is that:

1. As recently and January he said he wanted to play for Ireland again
2. He’s put down roots in Limerick.
3. He’ll be well aware playing for SA will very likely affect his next Munster contract.
4. And he’s also said the following:

“I was aware of [the law change] because a lot of my mates had said why don’t I declare (availability for the Boks). But my stance was always that I wasn’t going to throw my name into the hat. I was never going to initiate it because I felt like I had made my choice,” explained Kleyn.

So, given what we actually do know, it doesn’t seem at all like Kleyn expressed his wishes to switch at the expense of Ireland selection.

It seems way more likely that when Farrell didn’t pick him, and Rassie unexpectedly called him, he decided to switch.

Neil3030

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120833072#Comment_120833072

It's actually cherry-picking. By you.

Claim: "The general tone in Ireland threads and on social media when players who wear a certain colour provincial jersey do not get picked is that Ireland better not lose or it proves Farrell was wrong"

Evidence: One post from Twitter.

If you think the latter supports the former, there's really no point in arguing with you any further.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120833048#Comment_120833048

To be fair FFF, you said the following in the middle of the Kleyn debate;

Funny no Munster fan ever wants to debate Munster guy vs Ulster guy. Only ever Munster v Leinster

I pointed out to you that when the original Ireland squad was named (not even when Kleyn was named for SA), I had posted that I felt he was very unlucky to lose out to Treadwell. I repeated as much when the SA call up was announced.

You criticised pages and pages of debate. But can you see why where might be push back against comments like the above?

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120833127#Comment_120833127

Sorry, I thought we were discussing whether or not people were happy with Farrell.

If we can simply pull up random quotes (AGAIN) to highlight why you have a beef with me, then that's a different discussion. Like, this must be five or six times you've brought this quote up?!

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120833118#Comment_120833118

It isn't my issue that you made a broad statement of 'in lieu of actual evidence' rather than specifying the source and quantity of evidence that you'd accept.

You and aloooof have proved this evening why it is absolutely a waste of time to put in any effort to find you evidence, even if the search function here wasn't a complete shambles. Whatever you'd be provided you'd find an excuse not to accept it.

You've absolute blinkers on if you think the group of posters who are heavily weighted towards one province who simply can't let Kleyn's decision go are the ones that are free from 'unbridled biases' that are impacting the rest of Irish rugby fans who may have disagreed with the selection decision but have moved on with their lives

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120833078#Comment_120833078

We've spoken about how little you can safely take from player and coach interviews. Even if we do take that he wasn't telling white lies in his comments.

1. From that January interview he didn't sound like a player bothered at all whether he played for Ireland again. If he was in discussions regarding switching to SA it is the exact kind of statement a player would make - they didn't lie but didn't box themselves into anything. It was a bunch of platitudes - 'I’m very much, if it happens, it happens'.
2. & 3. He has potentially completely blown up his life with this decision and might not even make the SA WC squad. He could lose his Munster contract (wouldnt be the first for an Irish player who gets capped elsewhere) or not be renewed in 2024 and have to move away from his new roots. It is very naïve to believe anyone makes a snap decision with that sort of impact to the life of their family in the time between the Irish extended squad selection and the SA squad announcement.

4. He just says he wouldn't make the first move, that doesn't negate most of the options of how he could have expressed wishes to switch. I'm sure he could make a similar very truthful statement that he never made the first move to become an Irish player originally. All international teams and unions are making outreach to potential players who could play for them by whatever means and plans rarely happen on short notice.

I really think you're ignoring the far more likely scenario that this was in the works well in advance of this summer.

Neil3030

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120833211#Comment_120833211

Your issue is that you made an incorrect statement born out of a careless generalization across two websites. Your leading claim was that the "general tone in Ireland threads"... is one that Ireland "better not lose". It would be waste of time for you to seek evidence for this, because it simply isn't there.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120833228#Comment_120833228

Resorting to selective quoting me now 🤣

Look, Kleyn has gone to play for the team he dreamt of as a child and isn't coming back.

The next 4 months or so have the potential of being the most exciting in the history of Irish rugby. It is sad but if some want to they can continue to spend it pining over a player who has never been the smallest cog in this iteration of the Irish team, one that is number 1 in the world. Similar and including many of the same people who instead of supporting the Irish team and enjoying the victories in the middle of a grand slam, they lost the plot over an extended squad selection for a match against Italy.

I expect some borderline gleeful comments if we have a second row injury disaster but we are now where we are. The incredibly successful Farrell, POC etc have done what they see as the right thing for the team and might have even taken into account Kleyn's wishes and/or what they see as fairest on him - much like Healy where they could have capped them just to block them from playing elsewhere.

I'm glad this has it's own thread now so I don't have to avoid the Irish one. I can drop in every now and again and see the latest update on Kleyn from a few desperates who are acting like they were dumped by their partner who can do no wrong and just can't stop stalking their every move on social media.

Neil3030

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120833253#Comment_120833253

Full quote, which was already above (something you knew full well):  "The general tone in Ireland threads and on social media when players who wear a certain colour provincial jersey do not get picked is that Ireland better not lose or it proves Farrell was wrong"

Comparably imprecise in either its full or truncated form.

Dubinusa

Jean Kleyn is suddenly the topic. What's the rumpus? If he got selected into the Irish squad, would he make the 23? Farrell is backing Baird, Treadwell and Joe McCarthy. He thinks they are better suited for the team.

I hope Kleyn does well for the boks. They are my 2nd favorite team.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120833188#Comment_120833188

I don’t have beef with you, FFF. I have beef with some of your opinions and assertions.

Like the above; the reason I’ve brought it up is because I don’t think you’ve made any attempt to correct it? It was demonstrably not true.

Yet you can’t see why Munster fans get frustrated when accusations that are simply not true like that are levelled at them?

As I said, stuff like that was as much a reason for the pages-and-pages as the pro-Kleyn side.

clsmooth

RG Snyman gets in ahead of Kleyn on the bench this weekend. Impressive team.