Jean Kleyn N/IQ

System

This discussion was created from comments split from: Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120824096#Comment_120824096

It was the same around the 6 nations, the framing was that if Ireland didn't win the grand slam it was down to extended squad selections.

Surprised that dropping back into this thread several weeks later that some still haven't gotten over Kleyn's decision.

In hindsight I shouldn't be that some will never reach the acceptance stage of grief, that Kleyn will never add to his whopping 5 caps for Ireland.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120831704#Comment_120831704

It was the same around the 6 nations, the framing was that if Ireland didn't win the grand slam it was down to extended squad selections.

Can you point to a single post that said as much?

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120831817#Comment_120831817

If you can provide a decent search function on this site I'd be happy to.

The general tone in Ireland threads and on social media when players who wear a certain colour provincial jersey do not get picked is that Ireland better not lose or it proves Farrell was wrong - even when his decisions only relate to extended squads and likely would have minimal to no difference on a given result.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120831892#Comment_120831892

I think it's fair to say tone can be notoriously difficult to infer, especially over text. (it's why I asked for a specific example, rather than tone).

It's possible to be extremely pleased with how Farrell and co are doing, while also thinking he's gotten some decisions wrong.

Neil3030

Ah yes, "tone" and "framing".

Or, to perhaps put it more honestly, "narratives which, in lieu of actual evidence, rely on little more than my own unbridled biases".

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120831985#Comment_120831985

Thanks to twitter actually having a somewhat functional search capability it took seconds to find this that nearly verbatim post that match 'Ireland better not lose', like I claimed was going round regarding an extended squad decision during the 6 nations.

Now that we have some evidence, it might be timely to take a moment to reflect on 'unbridled biases' that might be feeding the conversation about Kleyn and the other players who have caused similar hyperbole over the last year.

https://twitter.com/threeredkings/status/1627689077418995714?s=20

Neil3030

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120832346#Comment_120832346

Your claim was that such comments were also on here. In the Ireland thread, specifically.

Can you substantiate this?

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120831945#Comment_120831945

It's possible to be extremely pleased with how Farrell and co are doing, while also thinking he's gotten some decisions wrong.

It's also possible to be extremely displeased with Farrell, and many are.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120832603#Comment_120832603

I can only ask if you can point to these posts?

Because criticism of Farrell does not equate to being extremely displeased with Farrell.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120832666#Comment_120832666

Really?

I mean, there's this, from today; I'll be in two minds who to support in this upcoming world cup

There's this, from the weekend. This all seems like hubris to me. 

And this Kleyn bossing the Auzzies in the Rugby championship calls his judgement of not even bringing him into extended training camps into question.

That's from the last 48 hours on boards.ie, from regular posters, I haven't even started with the re-regs yet. If you want me to go back to a time when we were actually naming squads and playing matches, I'll find you a lot more.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120832716#Comment_120832716

Ok, the first quote one, that's just a poor take imo. But I think vast, vast majority wouldn't be anywhere near that take.

The latter 2 quotes seem to fall into the "criticism" bucket to me. And it's specific with regards Kleyn.

That's not the same as being more broadly extremely displeased with Farrell.

Edit: I know we’ve had this discussion before FFF, but I’m happy to take it to PM if you want so as not to derail the thread further.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120832791#Comment_120832791

The only way I can answer this is by digging up reams and reams of previous posts, and for what? We both know they're there. You might not agree with them, but they are.

I'm sorry now but saying the national coach not picking a guy is 'hubris' is not specific to Kleyn. It is a very clear criticism of the coach's approach and state of mind.

I am not derailing the thread. You asked me for the evidence, I gave it to you. But yeah, we can leave it there.

CIARAN_BOYLE

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120832396#Comment_120832396

No he can't. Not because its false but because the search function on boards.ie is terrible.

The boards.ie community is a broad church and there are people of all opinions.

There are people with such opinions. There are people expressing those opinions.

Unless he wanted to spend several hours searching manually he won't find it. I think everyone has better things to be doing with themselves. Any statement found will be written off as that's just one person and irrelevant anyway.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120832877#Comment_120832877

There are. But are there many? That are extremely displeased??

I really don’t think there are. The Kleyn argument is the perfect microcosm of it.

There are a cohort that were pro-Kleyn getting a call up. They were being painted as being outraged and causing pages of discussion when the reality is there were just as many posters arguing against.

And I daresay that back-and-forth is then being perceived as something it’s not.

Neil3030

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120832877#Comment_120832877

The claims I want evidence for are those that speak in general terms. It's a fair request to make when the fans of your province are being baselessly imputed as some kind of sinister mob. On this page alone:

"The general tone in Ireland threads and on social media when players who wear a certain colour provincial jersey do not get picked is that Ireland better not lose or it proves Farrell was wrong"

"It's also possible to be extremely displeased with Farrell, and many are."

These are not users looking to highlight a subset of a "broad church". And if said comments form the "general tone" and can be attributed to "many" users, then why would they need "several hours searching manually" for examples?

These are very targeted remarks with the intention of painting Munster fans as against Farrell and wishing for the Irish team to fail.

And such baseless, shameless nonsense should not flow unchallenged because of a poorly coded website.

Buddy Bubs

I like Kleyn he's a better player than in 2019 and in my opinion, he should be in the Ireland squad picked by Farrell and his assistants. But I agree with him on 40 odd of the 45 and I'll prob agree with all but 2 or 3 of the final squad, and I'd assume most people will too.

How this can lead to people being displeased with him is beyond me, the coaching team are doing a great job and know a hell of a lot more than any of us here about the plan to win the world cup.

I'd guess there were advanced stage talks with kleyn expressing his wishes to switch to SA, and once that was known he was out of Ireland contention. Good luck to Kleyn in a bok Jersey, i hope he makes world cup on a personal level for him. And that he plays against Ireland, himself and Snyman in the 2nd row together at some stage.

Obviously I want us to smash the boks on the day though

Former Former Former

I am not trying to "paint" Munster fans as anything. I am a Munster fan.

If some fans (of any province) are embarrassed by the minority who missed the 'Team of Us' memo, I can understand that, but that doesn't mean it isn't a thing.

Don't ask questions if you might not like the answers.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120832396#Comment_120832396

Ah, good old moving of the goal posts:

Step 1: Imply a poster doesn't have any 'actual evidence'

Step 2: Poster provides 'actual evidence' that nearly word for word matches the original claim

Step 3: Respond with 'No, no... not that kind of evidence... provide me another type'

If you want to talk about 'unbridled biases' influencing this topic, I'm sure you feel it is completely coincidental that the vast majority of posters come from the same province who several weeks later still haven't gotten over the fact that a 5 cap Irish international was allowed to change their allegiance to their country of birth and the team they dreamed to play for as a child.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120833033#Comment_120833033

I'd guess there were advanced stage talks with kleyn expressing his wishes to switch to SA, and once that was known he was out of Ireland contention.

This speculation has been suggested on here a number of times at this point.

But what we actually do know is that:

1. As recently and January he said he wanted to play for Ireland again
2. He’s put down roots in Limerick.
3. He’ll be well aware playing for SA will very likely affect his next Munster contract.
4. And he’s also said the following:

“I was aware of [the law change] because a lot of my mates had said why don’t I declare (availability for the Boks). But my stance was always that I wasn’t going to throw my name into the hat. I was never going to initiate it because I felt like I had made my choice,” explained Kleyn.

So, given what we actually do know, it doesn’t seem at all like Kleyn expressed his wishes to switch at the expense of Ireland selection.

It seems way more likely that when Farrell didn’t pick him, and Rassie unexpectedly called him, he decided to switch.

Neil3030

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120833072#Comment_120833072

It's actually cherry-picking. By you.

Claim: "The general tone in Ireland threads and on social media when players who wear a certain colour provincial jersey do not get picked is that Ireland better not lose or it proves Farrell was wrong"

Evidence: One post from Twitter.

If you think the latter supports the former, there's really no point in arguing with you any further.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120833048#Comment_120833048

To be fair FFF, you said the following in the middle of the Kleyn debate;

Funny no Munster fan ever wants to debate Munster guy vs Ulster guy. Only ever Munster v Leinster

I pointed out to you that when the original Ireland squad was named (not even when Kleyn was named for SA), I had posted that I felt he was very unlucky to lose out to Treadwell. I repeated as much when the SA call up was announced.

You criticised pages and pages of debate. But can you see why where might be push back against comments like the above?

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120833127#Comment_120833127

Sorry, I thought we were discussing whether or not people were happy with Farrell.

If we can simply pull up random quotes (AGAIN) to highlight why you have a beef with me, then that's a different discussion. Like, this must be five or six times you've brought this quote up?!

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120833118#Comment_120833118

It isn't my issue that you made a broad statement of 'in lieu of actual evidence' rather than specifying the source and quantity of evidence that you'd accept.

You and aloooof have proved this evening why it is absolutely a waste of time to put in any effort to find you evidence, even if the search function here wasn't a complete shambles. Whatever you'd be provided you'd find an excuse not to accept it.

You've absolute blinkers on if you think the group of posters who are heavily weighted towards one province who simply can't let Kleyn's decision go are the ones that are free from 'unbridled biases' that are impacting the rest of Irish rugby fans who may have disagreed with the selection decision but have moved on with their lives

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120833078#Comment_120833078

We've spoken about how little you can safely take from player and coach interviews. Even if we do take that he wasn't telling white lies in his comments.

1. From that January interview he didn't sound like a player bothered at all whether he played for Ireland again. If he was in discussions regarding switching to SA it is the exact kind of statement a player would make - they didn't lie but didn't box themselves into anything. It was a bunch of platitudes - 'I’m very much, if it happens, it happens'.
2. & 3. He has potentially completely blown up his life with this decision and might not even make the SA WC squad. He could lose his Munster contract (wouldnt be the first for an Irish player who gets capped elsewhere) or not be renewed in 2024 and have to move away from his new roots. It is very naïve to believe anyone makes a snap decision with that sort of impact to the life of their family in the time between the Irish extended squad selection and the SA squad announcement.

4. He just says he wouldn't make the first move, that doesn't negate most of the options of how he could have expressed wishes to switch. I'm sure he could make a similar very truthful statement that he never made the first move to become an Irish player originally. All international teams and unions are making outreach to potential players who could play for them by whatever means and plans rarely happen on short notice.

I really think you're ignoring the far more likely scenario that this was in the works well in advance of this summer.

Neil3030

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120833211#Comment_120833211

Your issue is that you made an incorrect statement born out of a careless generalization across two websites. Your leading claim was that the "general tone in Ireland threads"... is one that Ireland "better not lose". It would be waste of time for you to seek evidence for this, because it simply isn't there.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120833228#Comment_120833228

Resorting to selective quoting me now 🤣

Look, Kleyn has gone to play for the team he dreamt of as a child and isn't coming back.

The next 4 months or so have the potential of being the most exciting in the history of Irish rugby. It is sad but if some want to they can continue to spend it pining over a player who has never been the smallest cog in this iteration of the Irish team, one that is number 1 in the world. Similar and including many of the same people who instead of supporting the Irish team and enjoying the victories in the middle of a grand slam, they lost the plot over an extended squad selection for a match against Italy.

I expect some borderline gleeful comments if we have a second row injury disaster but we are now where we are. The incredibly successful Farrell, POC etc have done what they see as the right thing for the team and might have even taken into account Kleyn's wishes and/or what they see as fairest on him - much like Healy where they could have capped them just to block them from playing elsewhere.

I'm glad this has it's own thread now so I don't have to avoid the Irish one. I can drop in every now and again and see the latest update on Kleyn from a few desperates who are acting like they were dumped by their partner who can do no wrong and just can't stop stalking their every move on social media.

Neil3030

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120833253#Comment_120833253

Full quote, which was already above (something you knew full well):  "The general tone in Ireland threads and on social media when players who wear a certain colour provincial jersey do not get picked is that Ireland better not lose or it proves Farrell was wrong"

Comparably imprecise in either its full or truncated form.

Dubinusa

Jean Kleyn is suddenly the topic. What's the rumpus? If he got selected into the Irish squad, would he make the 23? Farrell is backing Baird, Treadwell and Joe McCarthy. He thinks they are better suited for the team.

I hope Kleyn does well for the boks. They are my 2nd favorite team.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120833188#Comment_120833188

I don’t have beef with you, FFF. I have beef with some of your opinions and assertions.

Like the above; the reason I’ve brought it up is because I don’t think you’ve made any attempt to correct it? It was demonstrably not true.

Yet you can’t see why Munster fans get frustrated when accusations that are simply not true like that are levelled at them?

As I said, stuff like that was as much a reason for the pages-and-pages as the pro-Kleyn side.

clsmooth

RG Snyman gets in ahead of Kleyn on the bench this weekend. Impressive team.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120834717#Comment_120834717

Think this was always likely, however if they keep looking at Mostert as a blindside, and keep going with a 6-2 split on the bench, then Kleyn's chances are looking up.

The absolute gaping hole in that Boks team is Damian Willemse at 10. He's a nice footballer but I don't think he's a test quality 10, especially coming up against the ABs.

AbusesToilets

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120834717#Comment_120834717

Pretty much the first choice 23, minus Kolisi and Pollard. OH probably the biggest weakness for them. Helluva bench

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120833223#Comment_120833223

1. He has potentially completely blown up his life with this decision and might not even make the SA WC squad. He could lose his Munster contract (wouldnt be the first for an Irish player who gets capped elsewhere) or not be renewed in 2024 and have to move away from his new roots.

Well exactly. So why would he do that if the Ireland option was still on the table? I think it's extremely unlikely he would.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120838472#Comment_120838472

For a chance to play for SA in the world cup? I wouldn't find that a particularly odd choice anyway.

Ultimately we'll never know so 🤷‍♀️

It still remains a selection on the fringe of the squad either way and I don't think anyone in either the SA or Irish management were losing any sleep over the whole thing.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120838509#Comment_120838509

That order is not quite what was claimed tho.

I'd guess there were advanced stage talks with kleyn expressing his wishes to switch to SA, and once that was known he was out of Ireland contention.

Other posters as well have suggested he ruled himself out of Ireland selection to pursue a SA call up.

I don’t think we’ve any reason to believe that’s the case, given what we actually know and what’s actually been said.

Cookiemunster

Lads he literally said last week that he wasn't expecting the call.

Asked about his reaction when he received the call from Rassie Erasmus, SA Rugby’s Director of Rugby, to play for the Springboks, Kleyn admitted he wasn’t expecting it.

“I was as shocked as the rest of the world when I got the call,” he said.

“My journey (here) was a bit of a round trip because Rassie was the person who took me to Munster, and four years later he was also the person to bring me back. It’s a massive honour and an opportunity I could not pass by.”

https://www.springboks.rugby/news-features/articles/2023/07/05/kleyn-thrilled-as-springbok-debut-awaits-in-pretoria/

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120838861#Comment_120838861

I don't overly care about this one way or the other, but it wouldn't exactly be a shock if a player wasn't completely honest in an interview.

I wish him all the best (except for the Ireland game) and hope and expect he'll get an extension at Munster anyway. There also doesn't need to be any shenanigans because clearly Farrell wasn't a massive fan at the end of the day. I just wouldn't be surprised if he'd at least had some talks with SA management over the last while.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120839007#Comment_120839007

That's the point tho. If Farrell clearly wasn't a massive fan, then it makes the possibility / necessity of shenanigans way less likely.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120838472#Comment_120838472

I never said the Irish option was on the table. Whether it was Farrell or Kleyn, that has been off for a while.

My point was that it simply isn’t credible that the process for Kleyn to start considering SA started from an unexpected call from Rassie after he wasn’t selected for Ireland.

It would be completely reckless of him to potentially blow up the life of his close and extended family on what some here are making out was a spur of the moment decision.

No one knows the truth about how long he had been speaking to SA but it defies logic that Kleyn hasn’t at minimum been considering this potential switch for a while (and absolutely fair play to him for chasing his dream)

Cookiemunster

How is he 'blowing up his life' exactly? He's at Munster for at least another year, so things will be pretty stable for a bit yet.

However he's a professional sportsman and nothing is guaranteed in that life. Even without the SA call up, at any point he could be attracted by a big offer from France seeing as he wasn't getting anywhere near the Irish squad. He could easily go there for a few years and then return and settle down in the home he's built in Limerick. As many other professional players have done before him.

Former Former Former

It was a no-brainer for Kleyn in the end.

If we picked up a few injuries and he got a call-up and got another Ireland cap, then he's never going to play for the Springboks.

But then post-RWC, he's 30 years old and we're into a new 4-year cycle so he's probably not going to be needed by Ireland either, especially with Farrell and POC in situ until 2025 at least.

Then next season, he finds that guys on the wrong side of 30 who aren't Ireland regulars don't fare too well in contract negotiations (see also: Marmion, Kieron).

Instead he gets to play for his native country, has a shot at the World Cup and gets to put himself in the shop window for a better deal elsewhere in 2024.

And despite the talk of the depth in SA rugby, his immediate rival was Marvin Orie. I'd say he fancied his chances there. I'd fancy my chances there.

And if he and RG Snyman are mates off the field, you can be guaranteed this was a regular topic of conversation. There's no way this just fell out of the sky.

Buer

There's an assumption by many that this means Kleyn will be forced to leave Ireland. I don't think that will be the case. The likelihood is that Snyman will move on at the end of his contract. He has extended once already, has had a fairly mixed time of it in Limerick and there's now significantly more money floating around SA than there was 6 years ago when he left.

That leaves a NIQ spot available and I'd assume Kleyn will avail of that for a 2 year deal. He might move on. I'm sure he'll have options now and his profile has improved (and the money on the table will too) but I don't think he's going to be prevented from signing if he wants to.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120839007#Comment_120839007

That's a roundabout way of calling him a liar

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120839638#Comment_120839638

This is a less roundabout way of calling him a liar

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120841068#Comment_120841068

If you want to view it that way suit yourself. I think believing 100% of everything sportspeople say is pretty ridiculously naïve (nor, frankly, does he owe us the truth in the matter).

I'm not about to tell my employer if I'm searching for a new job, I just don't get asked that question by the media.

clsmooth

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120841068#Comment_120841068

That’s a very loaded and emotive way of putting it. Is life that black and white for you? That somethings either complete truth or lie?

Akrasia

If Kleyn says he wasn't expecting a callup and it was a complete surprise, and someone comes on and says 'It would not be a shock if he wasn't completely truthful' then yes, that's a poster going out of their way to say 'yeah, he could have been lying'

Kleyn has nothing to gain from saying he was surprised by the call up.

He said in February that he was still fully open to being called up by Ireland. Ireland never called him up, so when Rassie called he accepted the offer.

There is no reason to cast aspersions on Kleyn's character, by speculating that he might just be 'not completely truthful' in interviews on this topic.

(or as Foxtrol said, outright calling his interview as beyond credibility, thereby outright accusing him of lying)

(I actually have more respect for Foxtrol's position, at least they say it outright instead of trying to slip in speculation by the back door with no evidence to back it up)

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120841399#Comment_120841399

There is no reason to cast aspersions on Kleyn's character

I'm not. I don't consider it impactful to his character one iota.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120841156#Comment_120841156

Kleyn had already accepted the new job when he made the statement that it came out of nowhere

Do you lie to your employers in the exit interview and say that you were just headhunted out of nowhere when you're leaving a job?

clsmooth

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120841399#Comment_120841399

Can I ask what your evidence is? At the end of the day you’re just speculating to the contrary and accusing others of calling him a liar.

The truth is nobody knows what exactly went on and anybody commentating is just speculating. That’s what happens on a discussion board.