Tour de France 2023 ***spoilers*** Warning in OP

JRant

It's funny because when Pog won his second tour it was much the same talk as now, "oh, nobody is going to beat him". It only takes one fall, like Pog this year, to derail preparation for a 3 week race and Ving has been lucky enough the past two years to come into the race in top top condition. Who knows what next year's race might be like?

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120873925#Comment_120873925

I think a lot of it is down to Pog being a child prodigy. Just like Remco he grew up in a peloton where a fair amount of his attacks worked and he could afford to risk riding with panache.

Vingo as you said was packing fish which is also one of the big reasons why some people are questioning his achievements. Too similar to a decent classics rider or a lad who was getting dropped by sprinters in the vuelta who both went on to win a fist full of Tours. It's not fair but it's inevitable. Vingo's story would be a rags to riches Disney movie in most other sports.

Mefistofelino

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120873626#Comment_120873626

I think Zeeman is being a little disingenuous with this - there must have been something that prompted Jumbo Visma to investigate and invest in a promising but not exceptional (results-wise) rider. Jonas was flagged as an exceptional physical specimen even before his JV contract. This statement isn't the "win" Zeeman might think - in fact he may have been better flagging that "yes, Jonas is a beast with a crazy VO2 and heart the size of a farmers bucket."

tobefrank321

Its virtually impossible to dope these days and get away with it, unless jumbo-visma have discovered something revolutionary which is unlikely. Just fantastic athletes all around. It really is a team of supermen, better than Team SKY at their peak.

Hopefully this tour was a blip for Pogacar and he gets proper preparation next year. The last thing anyone wants it a tour that's as good as over in the first week and a 90% fit Pogacar stopped that happening this year. So hats off to him.

It looks like Sepp Kuss may be in line for the Vuelta Espana which would be a great effort from him if true. Surely he's a grand tour team leader in a year or two as a reward for all his efforts.

tobefrank321

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120873865#Comment_120873865

I don't think he actually attacked Pogacar properly once in this tour. He came around him for show on Sunday's stage 50m from the line. Yesterday he also didn't attack, as Pogacar just dropped out the back. I think Pogacar could learn from him, as Pogacar is prone to big attacks one day and running out of steam the day after.

Mefistofelino

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120874151#Comment_120874151

Kuss has previously expressed his lack of desire to be a leader, plus he cannot really TT at the level required to win a GT.

A third GT this year might also be too much. I don't think he's as strong in this tour as before, probably due to the fact the Giro is in his legs

tobefrank321

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120874215#Comment_120874215

Yeh the last few mountain stages he's struggled. Probably expected. Its hard to see him doing the Vuelta, but what I read yesterday his name is down for it. Could be a mistake. Overall he seems a very modest guy and maybe wouldn't enjoy the limelight if he was a team leader, all the interviews and expectation.

Girly Gal

It's hard to see Pog beat Ving in future tours if both are fully fit, Ving has shown he can put time into pog in the mountains and also in the TT's, or at worst hold the status quo, Pog has only ever being able to gain a handful of seconds here and there, but, nothing really significant to suggest he can put significant time into Ving. Obviously anyone can have a bad day, but, all things being equal and with Ving having the stronger team, it's hard to see Pog overcome Ving, which is strange to say considering 2 years ago he himself looked unbeatable at the tour and looked set to dominate for years to come.

Macy0161

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120874100#Comment_120874100

Even that's myth making - he was riding for a conti team when he worked in the factory. At conti level, he wasn't fully pro and the hours suited. iirc Valgren also worked there for a while. He was in the Danish set up before he signed with JV.

Macy0161

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120873641#Comment_120873641

It's on the bookshelf behind me - one I've actually read several times.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120874470#Comment_120874470

Of course its myth. You don't go from fish factory to Tour winner but it's the story that's out there and the one that will form many people's opinions good or bad.

tobefrank321

Outside of Pogacar, is there anyone else who can touch Vingegaard? Just looking at Bernal crashing on the decent the other day, he's had an awful tour and you'd wonder if he will ever get back to his best and if his best is anywhere near Pog/Vin, which it probably isn't. Hindley seems a bit off. Carlos Rodriguez has potential to challenge next year, but needs a big improvement. And you'd wonder if Remco would have a go at Le Tour in 2024 or is he happy to stay with the two other tours? But again probably not at the top two's level.

Squidgy Black

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120874615#Comment_120874615

Remco will more than likely give it a crack next year, QS are rebuilding the entire team around him more or less, if they don’t decide to cash in on his contract that is, he’s on a pittance but INEOS and others are rumoured to be sniffing around about a potential transfer.

I’d probably give Bernal the benefit of the doubt since he’s only really back racing less than a year after the crash, but I dunno if he’ll ever get back to the levels of 2019.

Wouldn’t rule out the possibility either of someone else popping up out of nowhere ala Vingegaard

Junior

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120874673#Comment_120874673

Quickstep are for sale, and there's a mass exodus from that team. I wouldn't be surprised to see them fold into Ineos. Bernal finishing races at this stage is a win for him. He will be another 12-18 months before he's at the pointy end of a race.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120874724#Comment_120874724

There is a mass exodus from Quickstep to pay for Remco's new team. They are gutting the sprint team for him.

And the way Paddy does business there are always comings and goings.

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120874392#Comment_120874392

He beat him into 2nd place 2 years ago by 5 mins. What's changed is JV has improved, and the JV team has become even stronger.

Again people are forgetting that UAE had basically no support for Pog last year and this year he was derailled in his prep. Pog has put time into him also in the mountains and this is the first TT in which there was such a massive gap between them, which is again understandable given that one was on a turbo trainer for 6 weeks and the other was in the mountains, or in an aero tunnel

Paddigol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120873740#Comment_120873740

I never suggested you did??! You took issue with the fact that someone else suggested Pog had an off day at the TT by pointing to his time over Wout. And I simply pointed out that you can't really compare a Pog TT against a Wout TT in the last week of a GT where the TT is not a flat power TT, one is trying to squeeze out every second for Yellow and the other has flogged himself for two weeks for his leader and may have needed to do more of the same in the next few days.

I didn't dream all the Mod warnings about doping insinuations, front page references to Lance and the numerous new posters who suddenly appeared to announce their disappointment at the Stage results.

Maybe we're in violent agreement with each other, maybe we're at complete cross-purposes... I dunno. I just think sport is a much greyer shade than the black and white it's often made out to be.

Edit: for what its worth I actually have a lot of time for Vingo. He seems like a very genuine and selfless guy. Introverts often get unfair billing in the media.

Girly Gal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120874860#Comment_120874860

Yes, but, 2 years ago Ving was a domestique for Roglic until Roglic crashed, correct me if I'm wrong, but, I don't remember Ving being considered a contender before that tour started, had he started as the team leader the gap might well have been smaller, so that tour needs to looked at in that context; Ving wasn't expected even by his own team to be their main challenger overall. Since he's become the team leader I don't think Pog has put any significant time into him on any stage, nothing more than 30 seconds or so, but, Ving has now put minutes into pog on multiple occasions. Ving is clearly the better climber and has shown he can at worst match Pog on TT (even excluding Tuesday TT), so it's hard to see where Pog can gain time on him.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120875691#Comment_120875691

There were people talking about a Rog/Vingo double team even back then. Usually came from people with a pretty deep knowledge rather than average media.

I remember at the time thinking why are people bigging this guy up just because he was able to suck Pogs wheel longer than the rest.

Macy0161

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120875736#Comment_120875736

And he actually dropped Pog on Ventoux and had put 40 seconds into him by the top iirc? It wasn't an uphill finish. That was the start of Pog not liking the heat as that was his reasoning.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120874181#Comment_120874181

Marie-Blanque, where he put over a minute into Pog counts as a proper attack for me.

retalivity

Ayuso will give Vingagaard a serious battle in a year or 2, possibly even alongside Pog.

Girly Gal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120875736#Comment_120875736

I remember that too, he seemed to come from nowhere, but, Roglic was the clear team leader at the time, Ving was the backup if anything went wrong with Roglic, he wasn't expected to seriously challenge overall and never really looked like winning overall, but, did show enough to suggest he would challenge Pog. At the time he was a bit like Yates is now with Pog, Yates would be team leader if anything happened to Pog, but, wouldn't really be expected to seriously challenge overall.

retalivity

Well done the break!

breezy1985

Campenaerts and Asgreen are just animals.

Squidgy Black

Fair play to Asgreen, but there’s no chance that happens without all the other sprinters still in the tour, nobody wanted to help Alpecin

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120876226#Comment_120876226

With all the sprinters here that break would look very different from the start given it was made up of 2 big sprint teams.

retalivity

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120876226#Comment_120876226

Jayco and DSM helped out a bit, but you'd wonder why when Groenewegen and Welsford were nowhere, again

martco

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120873930#Comment_120873930

thanks for that info, and many congrats for nailing it! and how you described things gives me a bit of hope at least! I do actually think I can do this, get back to being fit for life if I set myself a major major goal like Etape, nail it and keep it up, go again better....that's just kinda how I work upstairs if u know what I mean

I suppose the only way to train on long hill drags at temperature like you describe is to goto a place that actually has that which is catch22 innit?! maybe a good excuse for me to go on a couple of training trips I'm liking the sound of that lol :)

G1032

Only caught the last 25km (or thereabouts) but what an amazing finish. Just after I started watching the gap went out a few seconds to 49. I was thinking surely not. But then it was closing fast and thought it was curtains. Fair play to the break though. Amazing racing and an amazing win. What a TdF. I can't remember a better one. I did watch '86 on Channel 4 like many others here I'm sure but tbh I can remember very little about it now. This years Tour will live long in the memory. Can't decide whether Asgreen's win today or Lafay's win is my favourite. Lafay's seems like a lifetime ago now.

retalivity

Edit: wrong thread