Tour de France 2023 ***spoilers*** Warning in OP

retalivity

Simon Geschke ensures he'll be in the netflix doc next year, racing to finish inside the time cut

https://twitter.com/simongeschke/status/1681767672042717185

Injuryprone

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120872430#Comment_120872430

I thought the signs were there on Sunday that his legs were beginning to go when Ving came back to him at the finish line

Bambaata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120872430#Comment_120872430

I thought he looked sick in the TT, gaunt face and want getting into an aero position on the road bike, cold sore going a few days too, taped stomach today????

eagle eye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120871614#Comment_120871614

Personally I walk a lot. I try to average 8 miles per day. I'll try and up that to 10 over the next couple of weeks. All the way up to the Vuelta. 😁

Brian?

I knew it was an exceptional TT by Jonas. This really shows how exceptional. L’Equipe have turned on him, they’re using the same headlines they did about Armstrong, which I think is unfair.

CrowdedHouse

Wout van Aert has departed

https://twitter.com/JumboVismaRoad/status/1681920252790161411?s=20

Mr. Cats

I think it’s clear now that Pog was cooked, and probably already partially cooked on Tuesday and for the TT.

If he hadn’t been so badly depleted then probably the gap to JV would have been less, and maybe a lot less, on the TT. Then you’d have two riders as outliers on that chart with closer performances. (I still JV would have won due to better strategy with no bike change and better lines/descending etc)

I think that the time gap to WVA isn’t really all that relevant. His own performances at this Tour have been a bit below his usual standard and as mentioned here he was only 15s ahead of Cavagna. Also, the chart is a bit misleading, as it’s w/kg that’s relevant on a TT with so much climbing. And again, the av speed doesn’t reflect things like bike changes etc.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120873477#Comment_120873477

He came second in the TT and blitzed third who is a great TTer. Of course that matters.

How does this had a bad TT thing keep getting repeated.

Mefistofelino

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120873490#Comment_120873490

Its not complicated. If a fully fit Pog could have finished within, say, 30 seconds on Vingo but instead finishes ~ 100 seconds down, then he's underperforming. It was not a "bad" TT by Pog but not as good as it could have been. Up to the TT, we'd have said they were reasonably closely matched - but the W/kg differences from the TT were (relatively speaking) massive.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120873512#Comment_120873512

Na Vingo's TT is insane. Nobody is keeping up with that and I don't believe Pog or anyone could have done better.

Squidgy Black

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120873420#Comment_120873420

Forgot about that, before the tour they were expecting him to leave before they hit the alps once the first sprint stages were gone so just slipped everyone’s mind I think.

Pretty much means Philipsen has a free run of today and tomorrow unless the likes of Groenewegen or Girmay can finally put in a decent sprint, or the breakaway miraculously stays away

MangleBadger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120873536#Comment_120873536

But in hindsight after seeing Pog blow up the following day the signs also point to him under performing on the TT. JV and Pog should be smashing Wout on a time trial with 600 metres of elevation over 20km.

For reference Planche des Belles Filles had 960m over 36km and Pog put 90 seconds into WVA, where they both changed bikes. Bike change was the wrong call this year.

Macy0161

I still come back to what's changed - the two of them were head and shoulders ahead of everyone else. Pog clearly cooked/ ill, so I don't really see what's more unbelievable today that wasn't this day last week? Jonas was also dropped by Bilbao on the altiport/ final ramp, so not exactly showing no signs of weakness.

It's amazing to see Pog do the spring classics, but I think they'll at least have to consider his race programme for next year. I think perhaps the biggest issues are he does seem to suffer with the heat, and above 2000 metres. Issues above 2000 meters has done for a few GC people that would otherwise have been contenders.

neris

Love to see the organisers do a TT and make the teams use normal road bikes

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120873593#Comment_120873593

Laurent Fignon I imagine would agree 👍

Macy0161

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120873617#Comment_120873617

It still wasn't a normal bike!

Squidgy Black

Merjin Zeeman the DS for Jumbo calling bullshit on the tweet going around saying Jonas’ VO2 max was 97

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120873625#Comment_120873625

I was just about to post that! Laurent didn’t even wear the TT helmet he had. Complete over confidence.

If you haven’t read his autobiography I’d highly recommend it. The best sports book I’ve ever read. The man was a true individual

Mefistofelino

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120873641#Comment_120873641

He was also quite happy to take sole credit when everything went well but blame everyone else (except himself) when things went belly-up.

It is a great book, though.

Paddigol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120873536#Comment_120873536

But nobody has suggested that? The post you are quoting literally said "within 30 seconds" of Vingo. You reference Wout being a great TTer - TTs come in all shapes and sizes, and here we're talking about a domestique in the last week of the Tour who would be expected to calibrate effort with the need to support his leader over the coming days in the mountains.

If we're talking conjecture - I've zero doubt that if the roles were reversed and Pog had blitzed Vingo by 90 seconds, there wouldn't be half the kerfuffle and we'd be back listening to plaudits about him being the new Merckx. More people like Pog than Vingo, and people are p!ssed that "the Tour is over", so Vingo is getting it in the neck.

martco

semi off topic but seems to be many knowledgeable sorts on this thread...

have any of ye on here ridden a Tour stage like yesterdays or likes of Tourmalet, Alpe d'Huez etc. ..either solo tourist or as part of an organised event like Etape du Tour?

I like the look of that Etape yoke, maybe train for and do it in '25 or '26. I used to run marathons which stopped unfortunately as I had to have a hip. I need to get back to some kind of decent fitness and focus and thinking it might be a suitable target. I'm in my mid 50's now dunno is it fantasy thinking or do-able?

Mefistofelino

I thought the whole reason to quote VO2 per kg of body weight is that it removes the need to know how heavy Swedish firefighters are.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120873702#Comment_120873702

I have made absolutely no mention whatsoever about there being anything dodgy about Vingo's TT.

All I said was Pog didn't have an off day, bad TT or could have done a way better TT.

I think very much it's the other way around and Vingo fans are desperate to paint Pog as having a bad day to try shut down doubters.

mossym

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120873593#Comment_120873593

they have the choice to use road bike if they want, and given they use different "normal road bikes" depending if its flat or mountain anyway i'd rather see how fast they can go with every advantage

that said, i think a rule that they have to use the same bike from start to finish would be quite fun. imagine if they had to fix any issues on the spot rather than change the whole bike. suddenly the mechanics become vital

not suggesting you go back to the days of riders hand forging forks in a blacksmiths along the route or anything.

Squidgy Black

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120873715#Comment_120873715

Yeah makes no sense, not sure if it’s just a poor translation because he seems to understand the concept is per kg to make it comparable…

Large bottle small glass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120871912#Comment_120871912

@Brian? or perhaps Mrs Brian? have labelled that the consolation prize of sorts... (@Daroxtar will probably have to lie down after reading that)

My reading of Vingegaard is he was intimidated/in awe of the talent of Pogacar, despite winning the tour last year. It was a team effort which finally broke him at last years tour.

A diminished Pogacar (with Yates) couldn't shake off Vingegaard this year and he slowly grew in confidence ending with the TT. Yesterday with Pogacar in a heap was his first time breaking free and gutting him. Whatever about discussions around how he delivered power to the pedals (VO2 max or anything else) his position on bike, lines through corners etc was someone putting his hand up at the crucial time and delivering.

Pogacar is such an outlier the only comparison I can think of is Tiger Woods and how every other golfer was terrified/intimidated by him; at least until his wife when to work on the SUV with a 9 iron 😁.

Vingegaard strikes me as shy, meek, insecure in the Netflix series; very different character to what you'd expect for a GT team leader. Its an enormous responsibility that would weight heavy on his type of character but probably doesn't cost Pogacar a thought.

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120873795#Comment_120873795

You could be on to something there.

There is an innate conservatism to the way Vingegaard rides, it’s like he doesn’t believe how good he is.

Large bottle small glass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120873865#Comment_120873865

He was packing fish 5 years ago; its quite the step up to be the general/leader in a multi million euro team all at your disposal.

There's a full graveyard of rugby talent who had all the skills, physical attributes etc etc but not the temperament/composure to handle the pressure of being the man everyone looks to. Even Irish greats like O'Gara/Sexton shat the gap before delivering.

Pogacar's "pressure is for tyres" character is really rare

retalivity

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120873710#Comment_120873710

I did l'etape 2 weeks ago, it was the stage from Annemasse to Morzine. I would consider myself an ok cyclist, relatively fit, no problems with 100k+ spins or climbing around wicklow, but I do not race or anything. However, I suffered on the the long 10-15k, 6-10% climbs in the Alps, found the body started crying out around the 6-7k mark, which is all i could really train for here in Ireland. Coupled with the heat (it peaked at 34 the day I did it), the Ramaz and teh Joux plane were long slogs, with multiple stops and even a bit of walking on the JP. Its really tough, only 11,500 out of 16,000 starters finished it, either through abandonment or outside the time limits. I'd do it again though, a great, tough day on the bike and glad I managed to get around it!

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120873925#Comment_120873925

True enough.

I had put it down to Vingegaard riding to the numbers and taking no risks, but I could be wrong.

He’s definitely not an unlikeable character, seems like a shy and honest fella. My only reason to cheer against him is I want to believe someone can race from March to October and win the Tour. It’s looking less and less likely though.

people talking about the Vuelta and Giro, these will always be consolation prizes for not winning the Tour. Great races though they are, they are not the Tour. It’s the pinnacle of cycling and always will be.