New FCA1 and FCA2

Vizzy

I see that the new FCA1 & FCA2 are now on the Garda site.

A lot more detail now required in relation to the different types of firearm( especially "Night Vision equipment now being treated a a firearm in its own right)

The way I am reading it, all Night Vision equipment will now need to be applied for, whether you have an "SE" on your licence or not, but I'm open to correction.

Also, under "Accessories" all silencers require a serial number( which mine does not have)

Finally, all Clubs and Ranges need a Pulse ID. Can't speak about Ranges, but NO club has a Pulse ID and Gardai do not know how they go about getting one!!

fca1_firearm_certificate_application-copy.pdf (garda.ie)

Cass

@Vizzy "Night Vision equipment now being treated a a firearm in its own right

As said elsewhere it always was.

The way I am reading it, all Night Vision equipment will now need to be applied for, whether you have an "SE" on your licence or not, but I'm open to correction.

As you said they have expanded section 3.2 to fully incorporate the recording of them which wasn't done as precisely previously. Same with section 3.3 it's now expanded to allow you to apply for a license for such a sight on its own.

Also, under "Accessories" all silencers require a serial number( which mine does not have

It doesn't say it must have a serial number. It asks for details which include make/model/serial number, etc. If it doesn't have a serial number you simply give make and model.

Finally, all Clubs and Ranges need a Pulse ID. Can't speak about Ranges, but NO club has a Pulse ID and Gardai do not know how they go about getting one

That'll be fun. If they are saying all clubs must be authorised as with ranges then it's a grand a year (iirc) unless they wave the fee and as off this moment it doesn't exist so once again they have the cart before the Horse in asking for things that don't need asking for in law and has not been established on PULSE.

The magazine capacity is a simple addition and even easier to fill out. If you have an unrestricted 22 for example you simply state ten rounds, as this is the maximum before the capacity makes it restricted, and you're covered. For bolt action centrefires there is no such restriction on mag capacity so do as you please and for semi autos the law limits them to 10. Rimfire pistols 5, unless you are one of the few with a restricted license for one, and for centrefire pistols it's 20. For shitguns it's three for unrestricted and whatever for restricted. The numbers write themselves really.

I have both 5 and ten round mags for my 22. I'll be putting in 10 for my maag capacity so I'm covered for both ten and five whereas five may only cover me for five and if I use the ten I may be in breach of the conditions on which the license was granted.

Simply write down the max capacity of the mag, as per law, and you're covered. If you have a hinged floorplate mag well and it holds 3 , 4, or 5 write that down but it doesn't limit you to only 5 rounds on your license. They're two separate issues/items. One is an ammunition allowance, the one on the new FCA1 is the max capacity of the firearm.

It's more information and while I may be accused of being naive I can only take it at face value with what the law currently states, so I see no malice here. In fact it might makes things clearer had this version of the FCA1 been used since July 2009, then they [AGS] wouldn't be playing catch up.

Czhornet

Section 2.5

Mandatory proof that you are competent to possess, use and carry the firearm! Jaysus, the courses run by the local RFD will be full!!

otmmyboy2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120718800#Comment_120718800

One slight correction there, CF magazines, regardless of action type, are limited to 10 rounds by SI 420/2019

freddieot

Section 2.5

Mandatory proof that you are competent to possess, use and carry the firearm! Jaysus, the courses run by the local RFD will be full!!

I'm thinking any previous cert issued by AGS for the same class of firearm e.g rifle, is proof of competency. It's an issue for anyone new to shooting though.

Cass

I'm guessing that is aimed at new applications for various gun types. So even if you have a shotgun but are going for a rifle (first time) your experience with the shotgun won't count.

If you've already got or owned a shotgun, rifle, pistols, etc. then I'd simply be saying " X years of previous shooting experience, member of Y range/gun club, and licensed on similar firearm for Z number of years".

I've seen the so called competence courses out there and I won't be sitting in anyone's kitchen, drinking tea for an hour just for a bit of paper that isn't worth spit. Not least because I'm more experienced that the majority running them. Called that egotistical but I dare say the majority of lads would be in the same boat.

Cass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120718841#Comment_120718841

Nope.

Only applies to semi autos. Part 6 of SI 420/2019 which amends section 4(E) and states.;

It shall not be lawful for any person to acquire -

(a) a loading device for a centre-fire semi-automatic short firearm which can hold more than 20 rounds, or

(b) a loading device for a centre-fire semi-automatic long firearm which can hold more than 10 rounds

It specifically states for semi auto centre fires, makes no mention of bolt action or other variants of centrefire rifles and as such they are still unchanged as per primary legislation which imposes no such limits on their magazine capacity.

otmmyboy2

It is never a good thing when the PTB are looking for more information about something. If I was being very cynical I would say look at the list of firearm subtypes and imagine the Supers/Chiefs eyeing it to make people justify every single tickbox:

Air Pistol

Air Rifle

Active Night Sight

Bolt Action

Breech Loading

Bull Pup

Centre Fire

Double Barrel

Folding Stock

Lever Action

Over & Under

Paint Ball Gun

Passive Night Sight

Pistol Grip

Pump Action

Repeater

Rim Fire

Semi Auto

Shotgun & Rifle Combined(replacing the "combination gun"?)

Side by Side

Single Barrel

Single Shot

Spare Barrel(WTF - why would a spare barrel be required to be licenced, and if you are getting a spare barrel would you need to get the licence re-issued, or god forbid reapplied for?)

Thermal Image Sight

Other(specify) _____________________________

Is the Firearm New? Yes No 

otmmyboy2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120718881#Comment_120718881

You are right, there is doesn't mention repeating, however:

An extra little kick added by the state.

EDIT - So if you hold no cat B firearms you are good, but otherwise you are not.

It also doesn't specify that the cat B firearm be compatible with the greater than 10 round loading device, so say you have a 22lr Pistol, cat B, and you have a bolt action rifle in 308 with an 11 round magazine, according to the above your firearms cert for the cat B pistol would be revoked.

Cass

Spare barrels were already covered under your current license, assuming it's of the same calibre you are already licensed for obviously, so that is a head scratcher, but given the club pulse ID thing, and other errors I'm not surprised.

otmmyboy2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120718906#Comment_120718906

You don't think the club thing is just pre-empting the FEC report's recommendations on licencing clubs? Seems awfully coincidental otherwise that this is being reformed now, and directly contrary to Minister Browne's statement that nothing would be changed prior to consultations, the survey, etc.

Cass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120718899#Comment_120718899

Still nope 😁

Repeating firearm - A repeating firearm or repeater is any firearm (either a handgun or long gun) that is capable of being fired repeatedly before having to manually reload new ammunition into the weapon.

Bolt actions, lever actions, pump action rifles, etc all require each round to be manually loaded after the previous round has been fired. There is no "automatic cycling system" so they are not repeating firearms.

As an addendum. If the DoJ or AGS claim that refers to the loading of each round over the loading of a magazine then they need to define what repeating is, but as they don't ................. !

Vizzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120718869#Comment_120718869

How is anyone going to be able to demonstrate competency with Night Vision? There are no courses being run currently( I have checked) and given that they are viewed as a firearm now( restricted ?) they will be treated as a "new" application, so, as in your example regarding shotgun to rifle you will be obliged to prove competence.

I would guess that there are loads of Night Vision kit that, at best, has an authorisation for "a night sight" but not specifically for a Pard or a Pulsar etc, so how do you include details of where you got it without opening yourself up to being in possession of an unlicenced firearm?

otmmyboy2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120718927#Comment_120718927

Gonna have to point to the Irish definition of repeating firearm in SI 21/2008:

“repeating firearms” means firearms that are loaded and reloaded from a magazine or cylinder by a manually-operated mechanism;

Yes it is contrary to the normal interpretation of the wording, but that is not unique in our dreadful firearms legislation.

I do sincerely hope I am wrong on this though 😉

freddieot

I can see complete confusion with this. Queries about why someone wants a rifle with a pistol grip or a folding stock. Applicants confused if they need to tick telescopic sight if they have a standard scope with illumination and so forth. This was a good opportunity to straighten this form out for our benefit and also for theirs but someone has messedd it up again.

No doubt there is some smart boy tactics involved but I can't help thinking it's primarily incompetence yet again.

otmmyboy2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120718932#Comment_120718932

Same with silencers, how many people are licencing a firearm with a silencer ready to go with it, vs picking one up later.

Or even replacing a silencer that has been damaged/worn out.

Utter mess.

Cass

If you're looking for an answer @Vizzy , I don't have one. I'm not in the least bit defending this just pointing out the issues with it.

The same thing goes for competence courses for firearms and I've decided this for years. There is no regulation of these courses so if AGS are now demanding them then they need to regulate them which requires them to oversee and endorse the courses.

Wonder if they'll push for the courses if that has to happen.

As for Night vision, even harder or worse to regulate and run courses for. You cannot target shoot outside a range so you cannot have a load of lads shooting at targets and definitely not at night.

I've said the same about the current competence courses. Not just the lack of oversight by anyone/body but the legality of people running them. Either they have unlicensed people shooting guns, at targets, outside of a range which is illegal or they're not shooting anything but giving classroom level courses with no practical assessment which is useless.

otmmyboy2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120718952#Comment_120718952

I'm erring on the side of them pre-empting the FEC recommendations which will be implemented.

Cass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120718949#Comment_120718949

Well sh**. I forgot all about that SI. I even checked the legislation before posting the second time but here I stand, in my wrongness.

I'd argue the accuracy of that definition but it would seem that, that definition (albeit wrong) ties it up in a nice little bow for them.

Hats off to you sir. I stand corrected.

/runs off to hide all mags 😁

otmmyboy2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120718977#Comment_120718977

Haha, cheers, as I said I sincerely hoped I was wrong, but at the time it was a concerted effort to effectively ban all CF mags over 10 rounds, regardless of action type.

Now there is also a whole debate about "capacity" and how that is measured(ie some rounds will fit a magazine which makes the mag have a capacity of say 10, but if I put another round, which also fits that magazine in, and fill it and I get 20-something in there then which capacity does the magazine have? Germany had a decent-ish solution by specifying that the magazine had the capacity of the round it was originally intended to fire, but no such sense here).

freddieot

If incorrect or more likely incomplete information is given on one of these 'courses', is the State going to pay or underwrite any insurance claims arising should there be a related incident or unfortunate accident as a result.

If you have to complete a course, which is not regulated, and that is then accepted on the application, indeed now, must be on the application, is there a liability.

Currently the liability is with the firearms owner and any company they might be insured with and perhaps a range. However put an unregulated training entity into the mix and IMO it gets more complicated. If the state actually require proof of competency and accept certain training solutions as valid, well.....let the fun commence...

Cass

The problem here now is us calling for more regulation which will lead to "schools" being established like they tried to do a few years back and turn firearm ownership into a bigger money racket than it already is.

So catch-22 situation.

Grizzly 45

It seems all of you missed one critical point in this form. THE DATE MARCH 2023. TWO whole months before the FEC delivered any recommendations or report. Then it was pulled down if you look at the primary site "Firearms Licensing" you will see that it is dated as "copy, 15.6.2023" and the Irish version is dated 13.6.2023. Why pull one and leave the other within two days?

So IOW they jumped the gun on any recommendations of FEC or any proposed, not even in the works legislation either. Well, there goes the last bit of trust we should ever entertain that AGS is impartial or anything but an intensely hostile anti-gun operation that doesn't learn anything either. FFS putting down pistol grips and folding stocks as firearm TYPES!!! They are accessories that can be changed out within minutes.

Cass

I get the point but overall there is nothing "major" that is not already in law.

The club pulse is something, but the sights being firearms, more detailed application information, etc is already covered for.

The magazine capacity is not a limitation but a recording of actual mag capacities to be in line with law so again nothing changed just declared.

Grizzly 45

You are right, there is doesn't mention repeating, however:

An extra little kick added by the state.

Well NO. It is the EU mag ban directive badly worded applied to Irish law,with another clanger!

Europe esp Germany banned these mags by the physical mag body and their capacity to hold X amount of rounds. Hence you cant get surplus or modified to ten-round mags anymore on the open market

This was the point FUNI tried to make to the DOJ in 2019 on this. Was Ireland banning the Magazine body or its capacity to hold greater than 10 or 20 rounds? They didn't know what we were on about despite multiple attempted explanations.Going by the above they have banned the capacity,not the physical magazine body. So feel free to block your CF mags to ten rounds and continue. As usual it does NOT specify how this is to be done and simply states "hold" 10 or 20 rounds.

Grizzly 45

The same thing goes for competence courses for firearms and I've decided this for years. There is no regulation of these courses so if AGS are now demanding them then they need to regulate them which requires them to oversee and endorse the courses.

Wonder if they'll push for the courses if that has to happen.

Rumour and Scuttlebutt,treat as such

Apprently some AGS bigwig in the firearms training is getting ready to cash in on his time and pension and is thinking this will be a nice retirement project and income teaching the "only Garda-approved" firearms training courses in Ireland. Wouldn't this be very convenient?

News for them if that is the plan.It's illegal under EU and Irish trade competition law as that would be a monopoly on an industry. Be a greater laugh if it turns out to the "elite ARU" instructor who shot himself in the foot outside m the Garda station in Limerick!

bmmb88

On the mag capacity, a .22 pistol is restricted to five rds but its capacity can be 10rds or more ( Taurus TX22 ) just as semiauto shotgun is restricted to 3 but has a capacity of 5/6. If they want the capacity of the mags surley you tell them 10 rds even though we all know they are restricted to 5rds.

A bit confusing

Cass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120719493#Comment_120719493

I wouldn't overthink that aspect.

If your 22lr pistol mag has a capacity for ten but is plugged as per SI 391/2015 then it can only legally have five in it. Anymore and it's a restricted firearm hence needing a restricted license. So you declare 5 as that is all the mag can/should hold both physically and legally.

Same applies to all firearms on the same basis.

badaj0z

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058301033/new-fca1-and-fca2

My club has a Pulse Id.

Vizzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120719666#Comment_120719666

NONE of the clubs in our District has one, and as I said above the Gardai could not advise how to get one

JP22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120719768#Comment_120719768

To the best of my knowledge and in accordance with current regs, only authorised ranges/clubs are issued with a pulse number.

Game clubs do not have a pulse number (and mine certainly doesn’t have one) and I know of no game club with one. 

Cass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120719666#Comment_120719666

Game club or range? Did they pay the range authorisation fee?

dalalada

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120718800#Comment_120718800

are shotguns ammo capped aswell to 10?

Cass

The law states any shotgun capable of holding more than 3 rounds is restricted and needs a restricted license. If you want it to be unrestricted with an unrestricted license you need to make sure it can only hold three or fewer rounds.

That is the only "cap" in so far as the law states.

Got him!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058301033/new-fca1-and-fca2

Just had a peek at the new form!

Section 2.5 Proof of Competency is now denoted as a mandatory field ( M) no mention of first time applicant here.

Section 3.1 When did a telescopic sight become a firearm?? Never knew a spear gun was a firearm!

Double Barrell/ Over and Under / Side By Side???? They are all double barrelled so what's the significance of any more detail other that double barrell and will ticking that box suffice ?

Semi/auto / Repeater ?? they are both essentially the same are they not??

What is meant by a passive night sight?

Is the firearm new??? What difference does that make?? OMG!!

Section 4.2 Mandatory Pulse ID for gun clubs / Clay pigeon shooting clubs??? Never heard of that. Is this a way to restrict use to those clubs only???

I thought only ranges and pistol clubs were regulated like that?? Open to correction here but no gun club ( game shooting etc ) that i know of has such an ID.

Section 5.2 Land occupier PULSE ID??? What for ??

Land Occupier DOB???? What is the relevance of this??? OMG !!!

Section 8 Sufficient reason ( only applies to restricted firearms) ????? What about Section 4.2 so ???

Over all a new form what was drafted by someone who hasn't a clue but that doesn't surprise me in the slightest.

My logic would be to N/A the requirements asked for if they simply don't exist and let the powers that be worry about what to do next.

As Boycie in 'Only Fools and Horses 'used to say ' I cannot give you what I do not have !'

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120719493#Comment_120719493

You tell them 5 rounds because that's what you have because if you are compliant with the legislation, you've your 10 round magazine blocked so that it can only hold 5 rounds.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120718885#Comment_120718885

I wonder how Pulse will react when you have to tick several boxes for the same firearm, e.g. pistol grip, rim fire, semi auto, spare barrel, passive night sight etc.

It'll probably choke on it's own vomit I'd say.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120720281#Comment_120720281

Question. If you have a restricted semi-auto shotgun, is it restricted to 10 rounds under EU legislation given that it's a semi-auto centrefire firearm?

Edit. It appears that 10 rounds applies to both shotguns and rifles.

https://assets.gov.ie/213872/a0871f53-0ee5-4d2a-9fe3-fb6189d00f13.pdf

tonysopprano

How will PULSE handle this, for a FB pistol

It loads into the breech

Magazine is behind trigger

It is centrefire

It has a tritium night sight

It is a pistol, so has a pistol grip

It is a repeating firearm

It is semi auto

It has only a single barrel

My cert will have to be A4 size, before I finish

dalalada

I just asked

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120720513#Comment_120720513

Cass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120720645#Comment_120720645

If you're referring to my reply above:

That is the only "cap" in so far as the law states

Then both you and I have misinterpreted each other. I never said there are no limits having cited the limitations of most types of firearms a few posts back, but I understand the misunderstanding as I was referring to the magazine capacity and what makes a shotgun restricted or not which confused the issue you were referring to which I now see as a question in is there a limit to the total.number of rounds a shotgun can hold, capacity, rather than its status as restricted or not based on amount it can hold.

Apologies for the confusion.

dalalada

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120720685#Comment_120720685

Thats fine, I assume like battle corp said the answer is 10 max

Cass

Short answer yes.

Longer answer

The link @BattleCorp provided is not the actual SI. The actual SI says what I quoted on the other page. Namely;

4E. It shall not be lawful for any person to acquire -

(a) a loading device for a centre-fire semi-automatic short firearm which can hold more than 20 rounds, or

(b) a loading device for a centre-fire semi-automatic long firearm which can hold more than 10 rounds

You'll see in part (b) that the word shotgun is now gone from the guidance memo linked to by Battle corp and replaced with "long firearm" which is defined as any firearm other than a short firearm.

This covers shotguns without naming them specifically. As such they are limited to 10 rounds max capacity.

On a side note other than the AA12 or similar shotguns with box magazine loading devices I'd imagine not many shotguns can hold more than 10 rounds as the tube would be huge, protruding well past the muzzle.

tonysopprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120720758#Comment_120720758

You mean like these

tonysopprano

Something else that just crossed my mind.

What if I owned the magazine, before this was introduced?

Cass

Those are the ones that came to mind but what are they, 10, 12 rounds? Imagine one with a 15 or 20 round tube.

Cass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120720803#Comment_120720803

The mags stand revoked as of March 2020 (iirc). It's now an offense to own or possess one. There is no grandfathering of them.

tonysopprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120720803#Comment_120720803

Has anyone look at the penalties, in the District Court you get the same fine and jail time, but in the Circuit Court you get a bigger fine and but slightly less jail time for having a 20rd magazine than you get for having the FULL-AUTO AK47 used in the Narco feud

dalalada

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120720758#Comment_120720758

60cm is considered a long firearm ya?

Chiparus

If you have an unrestricted firearm say 10/22, or a Remington 700 and you fit an aftermarket stock with a pistol grip , are there now " consequences"- i.e. the firearm you have is no longer the firearm you were licensed to possess?

Cass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120721241#Comment_120721241

According to the legislation anything over 60cm.

short firearms” means firearms either with a barrel not longer than 30 centimetres or whose overall length (including the length of any detachable component) does not exceed 60 centimetres