Union Jack flying south of the border

Irish History

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121066739#Comment_121066739

Nonsense - read and learn.

''I am not a Nazi. I am not even pro-German. I am an Irishman fighting for the Independence of Ireland. The British have been our enemies for hundreds of years. They are the enemy of Germany today. If it suits Germany to give us help to achieve Independence, I am willing to accept it, but no more, and there must be no strings attached.'' - Óglach Seán Russell

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121069226#Comment_121069226

That is so funny, what else would a Nazi collaborator who wanted to hide his collaboration say?

The facts speak for themselves. Half of the 1940s Sinn Fein wanted to sell the country to the Nazis.

Irish History

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121066897#Comment_121066897

One of the more asinine posts I've read here so far. I am not a member of Fine Gael nor have I ever voted for them.

It seems to be lost on fools that the Irish people wanted Germany to win the war - particularly at the beginning of the war.

The historical fact of the matter is that the German Nazis were pussycats compared to the English Imperialists. England is responsible for the murder of countless millions of people in the countries it invaded and occupied around the world over the centuries.

Ireland is a prime example of England's genocide of a native people by ethnic cleansing.

Irish History

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121069240#Comment_121069240

More nonsense - it's clear to us that know what we are writing about that you do not know what you are writing about.

''Russell was a man who was willing to use the Germans for his own political ends, but who regarded the Nazi philosophy as anathema'' - Erwin Lahousen, Chief-of-Staff of the 2nd Bureau of the German Intelligence Service, 1939-1943

Irish History

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121067379#Comment_121067379

According to you.

Read and learn - the Allies didn't know about the Nazi death camps until December 1942 so how could Russell know what the Nazis were doing in the name of Germany in 1940 at the time of his death?

Get the picture everyone???

Irish History

Again - for the slow learners.

The Irish Republican Army were not Fascists - they were duh... Republicans.

The only Fascists in Ireland were Fine Gael and its supporters.

Fine Gael were established exclusively as a Fascist political party in 1933 - Fine Gael's first Führer was the rabid Nazi, Herr Eoin O'Duffy.

Fine Gael pretend that Cosgrave was its first leader but he wasn't - he was just their speaker in the 'Southern Ireland' House of Commons - which pretends to be Dail Eireann.

Fine Gael members (Fascist Blueshirts) and men who were in the renegade Free State army (deserts and betrays an organization, country, or set of principles) that are now called the Defence Forces, fought side-by-side with the German Nazis (Fascist Brownshirts) and the Spanish Fascists (dark Blueshirts) during the Spanish Civil War.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121069247#Comment_121069247

Not entirely sure you know what genocide means - it's out and out murder. Extermination. Not of culture, or langauge, or assets - of actual people.

And had the Irish known exactly what was going on in Nazi Germany in the early 40s, I'm pretty sure they would not have been cheering them on. And I'm not entirely sure Hitler would have supported Irish independence any more than the Birttish would.

Irish History

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121069404#Comment_121069404

Here Dougal - my definition of genocide is the same as the man who coined the word genocide.

The recent 4 episode HBO documentary about colonialism and imperialism (exterminate all the brutes) has a few bits about Ireland.

The man who coined the word 'GENOCIDE', Raphael Lemkin, left his papers to a museum - in one of the boxes a page was discovered with a list he wrote of countries that committed genocide in other countries. England's genocide of Irish people in Ireland was near the top of his genocide list.

So the man who coined the word genocide clearly had what the parasite that is England did in Ireland down as genocide.

He should know exactly what is meant by the word he coined - obviously.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121069420#Comment_121069420

Genocie - from the Greek "genos" meaning group, or family "caedere" meaning kill.

And I know you get off from the petty insults, if you have to be snotty and can't be civil, it means you don't have faith in your point and need to be a dick to supplement it.

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121069299#Comment_121069299

There we have it, this is the sort of 'Irish' person that people in the South would be welcoming with open arms in the event of a UI.

No thanks.

Calahonda52

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120717623#Comment_120717623

Perhaps you have stopped after the third word and give us all a break

seanrambo87

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120719878#Comment_120719878

Actually yeah. Why is it not?

seanrambo87

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121069926#Comment_121069926

You clearly get emotional about symbols, words certainly,

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121069926#Comment_121069926

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121069935#Comment_121069935

You know you replied to yourself there, right?

Anyway, symbols and flags have power and can be dangerous - but you'd be a dick to object to a national flag. Everyone has the right to be proud of their nationality, just as everyone has a right to be 'meh' about it.

Objecting to a flag representing a racist oppressive fascist political system, though? Yeah, I can agree with that.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121069247#Comment_121069247

It was actually England that saved many Irish people from ethnic cleansing during ww2. Had England and the rest of the UK not stood up to Nazis, Hitler would have invaded here, same as he did many "neutral countries", and deported its jews, handicapped etc to extermination camps.

Well done to the close on 100,000 Irish people who volunteered to join British forces in WW2, and many more who went to serve in its hospitals, factories etc. Support for Sean Russell and his IRA pals was pathetic by comparison. Even Develera executed a few and there was no outcry.

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121069276#Comment_121069276

The whole world knew about Kristallnacht, repressive anti Semitic laws, putting Jews, homosexuals, political dissidents into camps, not death camps but still prison camps BEFORE WW2! Anyone who had half a brain knew full fúcking well even pre War Nazi Germany was not a fun place to be. Their IRA stooges must have been either blinded by their own unrealistic political goals, a bit slow or in denial.

Unflushable Turd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121071036#Comment_121071036

It’s the same arrogance that has GAA clubs naming themselves after a white supremacist just because he was once a member of the republican movement.

“our cause is the most important and no one else’s matters”.

indioblack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121069276#Comment_121069276

I didn't mention the German death camps - you did.

The increasing threat from Hitler was known from the mid 1930's onwards.

"Read and learn". I suggest you take your own advice.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121071884#Comment_121071884

"Heroes" like Sean Russell only saw good in Germany, as they saw everything through a hyper-nationalist lens.

Grayson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121070963#Comment_121070963

To be fair, or jewish community was tiny. Not they they shouldn't have been saved, I'm pointing out that Ireland like the UK refused feck loads of jewish refugees.

Sean Russell sided with Nazis. A group that invaded neutral countries and had already committed atrocities against their own countrymen. He knew the type of scum they were.

Very few people come out of that period looking good.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121072882#Comment_121072882

Irelands Jewish community was small early in the 20th century and got smaller since, not helped by events like the Limerick pogrom, when the people of Limerick boycotted against the city's tiny Jewish population, inspired by the preaching of an anti-Semitic Catholic priest. Like other minorities, many headed to England.  

You claim very few people from that period came out looking good - well, approximately 40,000 Jews from Austria and Germany were eventually allowed to settle in Britain before the War, in addition to 50,000 Jews from Italy, Poland, and elsewhere in Eastern Europe. Ireland let in none, but the IRA did send Sean Russell to try to collaborate with the Nazis. After a lot of blood sweat and tears, Bergen Belsen camp was liberated on April 15, 1945, by the British 11th Armoured Division. Some Irishmen were among those British troops.

Grayson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121073204#Comment_121073204

And the UK blocked a load of adults from coming as well. Yes, they let in some, mainly the wealthy, but kept out loads. UK newspapers were running stories about jewish men coming to the UK. It's very reminiscent of the stories about fighting aged men coming from syria.

And yes, they liberated bergen belsen. But they knew about Auschwitz and refused to bomb the train lines going there or take any action to stop it. And they didn't publicize the information when they got it.

So you could argue that the UK did good. But it also did bad. Hence my statement that very few came out looking good. Actually, that's not 100% true. Because of the spin that came during and after the war, the allies painted themselves as sainted saviors.

And I don't know why you're mentioning Sean Russell. I agree that the guy was a cnut.

Hotblack Desiato

FWIW I don't think RAF bombers had the range to hit targets in Poland. And unless you can hit a viaduct (very difficult) or a major marshalling yard then a damaged railway can be repaired quite quickly.

Peregrinus

I have read — don't recall where — that when the UK government learned what was going on at Auschwitz, Churchill was keen that something should be done to disrupt operations there and instructed the Air Ministry to explore options. The Air Ministry advised that attacks on railways needed to be conducted in daylight - with the technology of the time, they were almost impossible targets to find at night — and under the strategy in place the RAF was only conducting night raids in Europe; day raids were being undertaken by the USAAF. So the USAAF were approached and they responded that it would be a good thing to do, but they were already operating under an overriding strategic directive that all their operations were to be in support of the planned invasion of Europe, and this wouldn't be, so they couldn't take it on.

In short, everybody thought that measures to try to impede the operation of the death camps would be a good thing to do, but that they would be a good thing for someone else to do, so nobody actually did anything.

Slightly longer point; it's common to credit the Allies with putting an end to Nazi oppression of the Jews, but in truth this was not at any stage a consideration which influenced the Allies, or an objective which they adopted. No allied country entered the war because of Nazi treatment of Jews, and no allied country took any strategic or tactical step at any stage in fighting the war because of Nazi treatment of Jews. They deplored it, but not enough to devote any resources to doing anything about it. They had other, and to them greater, priorities.

Even the view that they put an end to it is a bit rose-tinted. The Final Solution was largely carried through to completion. Before the end of the war the Nazis were already winding down the operation because, basically, they didn't have enough Jews left to feed the camps; they had already killed most of them. The defeat of Naziism was an unqualified good thing but it wasn't done to save Jews and, in terms of saving Jews, it came too late.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121078889#Comment_121078889

First half of your post (not attributing to you) is nonsense...Churchill hated the Indians and the Irish, he certainly didn't care less about Jewish people. All this night raid/day raid is nonsense. The Allies could target whatever they wanted.

I agree with the second part of your post - Hitler's Final Solution pretty much succeeded. He wiped out the majority of Jews alive at the time.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121078901#Comment_121078901

The day/night thing is well-documented — any book on the air war in Europe will cover it but, if you want immediate confirmation, it's mentioned the Wikipedia article in Air Warfare of World War II. Briefly, the USAAF had bombers that could operate more effectively at a higher altitude, so they were less vulnerable to ground-based anti-aircraft defences. Ground-based defences were more effective in daylight, because it was easier to target aircraft. Therefore the RAF, with its more low-flying bombers, operated the night raids and the USAAF operated the day raids.

It's quite wrong to say that the allies could target whatever they wanted- the strategic bombing campaign was very carefully co-ordinated and controlled at a high level, and that included target selection and asset deployment.

As for Churchill, although he came from a class and background in which antisemitic attitudes were common, he himself was not notably antisemitic, and Jewish historians and commentators mostly regard him as being, on the whole, friendly towards Jews and well-disposed towards Jewish interests. There's no reason to doubt that he was horrified by the Holocaust.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121078926#Comment_121078926

The Allies knew where the Jewish people were being exterminated but couldn't cut off the roads/railway?

Everyone in Europe knew Hitler was targetting the Jews for a decade beforehand.

Churchill's first action was to defend Britain.

At no point during the war was his aim to save Jewish people - that was entirely secondary.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121078930#Comment_121078930

I didn't say they couldn't cut off the roads and railways — I said they didn't. It is true that it might have been difficult to cut them off more than temporarily, but they didn't try.

As for Churchill's war aims not including saving Jewish people, that's a point I've already made myself. Nobody's war aims included saving Jewish people. Those who think that the Allies should be credited with stopping the Holocaust overlook both the fact that they largely failed to stop it and the fact that, to whatever extent they did stop it, this was an unintended by-product of actions the Allies took for other reasons and with other motivations.

But this isn't evidence of comprehensive antisemitism on the part of the Allies. And there's no particular reason to single out Churchill here. We do, I think, have some evidence on the historical record that he at least wanted to do something, thought about doing something, and instructed others to follow up. It's not much, but SFAIK it's more than we know that either Roosevelt or Stalin did.

Unflushable Turd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121078901#Comment_121078901

all of your post is nonsense.

coolbeans

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121069893#Comment_121069893

This kind of Irish person would have me voting against unity just to piss them off. They're the worst kind of shinner. Blind to all nuance except 'England bad'.