Road accidents, young tractor drivers and driver licencing

CreadanLady

In 2 weeks there have been 2 of fatal road accidents that have one thing in common - tractors driven by young fellas.

We had a girl died in Cavan yesterday after a tractor driven by a late teens boy crashed.

Few days before that a 13 year old boy driving a tractor was killed after crashing a tractor. Admittedly he was 13 and had no business driving a tractor on the road.

Those are the fatalities - I am sure there are many more non-fatal accidents happening around the country. And

I see it myself, contractors have young lads up driving heavy, speedy tractors. They offer no courtesy on the road and many appear oblivious to how hazardous their driving habits are.

Even if 16 and legal, it is still incredibly dangerous. The average 16 year old is not mature enough to be able to appreciate the hazards and risks of driving machines of this size. Futher, they do not have the experience to be able to react to an unexpected situation.

It is an established and unsurpriseing fact that teenagers are not capable of assessing risk in the same way as an adult. They do not have the same cognitive abilities. There is also a greater tendency towards risk taking behaviours. Also, you have a peer pressure mentality in that age group - fellas daring eachother and trying to outdo one another with what they can do - this was seen most obviously in the tik-tok videos of a few years ago when of stunts were being.

While the driver licencing is legal, the business owners, whether the farmer or contractor still has a massive failing by allowing a youngster to drive such heavy and fast tractors as would be typical in a silage outfit. They have an obligation to ensure that their employees are competent to do their job. That means having the knowledge, training, and maturity to do so. I can't see that many contractors or farmers who have teenage drivers could satisfy a court that their driver was competent.

Not a popular suggestion in this forum, but I think the licence age should be increased to at least 18 for driving on the road. Not that 18 year olds are very mature, but they may be somewhat more so than a 16 year old.

I think it is an oddity that the licencing system is so lax and easy for a W licence, but yet so comparatively rigorous for a B licence, and even moreso for a C1/C licence where you have to do additional CPC training regularly. And obviously, the type of tractor in a large farm or contractors fleet has more in common with a truck in terms of size, weight and severity of consequences in the event of a collision.

But it is like that for a reason. The 16 year old limit was brought in many many years ago when the average tractor was probably a little MF 35 or 3000 or something of that line. Small, slow, light weight. relatively low risk - considering it was also a time with a more lax attitude to road and workplace safety, it was reasonable that a 16 year old could handle such a machine. But the licencing law has not kept pace with the times.

What I would consider reasonable (but i would not expect much agreement here) would be say a W1 licence at age 18 for tractors/machinery up to a certain weight/size/speed and W licence at 21 for the larger/heavier/faster classes of tractors and machinery.

What do people think about the whole licenceing setup?

I would hope that at least there would be some appreciation of the mad situation where at 16, you're ineligible for a licence to drive a little 875cc Fiat 500 down the road , but yet you can get a licence to legally drive as large a tractor as you want (with no apparent restriction of the achievable speed of the tractor), with a vehicle length up to 19m and a weight potentially up to 34 tons, depending on the configuration. That to me is an insane contradiction. But i also appeciate that for a contractor, it means a plentiful supply of cheap drivers.

wildwillow

Agree absolutely. Last night’s accident was at 11pm. Probably still light enough but no teen should be in charge of machinery at that hour.

It was tragic about the thirteen year old and his family will bear the loss forever. But who thought it was a good idea to allow him on a public road in sole charge of a powerful vehicle.

Times and tractors have changed and no one without a group 2 licence should be allowed drive larger tractors.

My sympathy to both families.

whelan2

I think the tractor licence should be brought in line with the car licence. Why should a 16 year old be able to drive a massive tractor on the road and haul silage or whatever when they haven't even passed their driving test. A tractor licence is too easily gotten and these outdated laws are too easily gotten around.

Mooooo

Would have no issue with tractor licenses being brought in line with cars.

A renewal or driving course would nearly want to be done again for all road users. I dunno how many times I've seen, and been driving, ag gear which indicates right only for the bollix behind him to try and over take.

KAMG

Great post. I could not agree more. I see it around home too. Young lads up on these massive tractors driving mad through the villages. Its a recipe for disaster as has been seen in recent weeks. I reckon the age should match that of cars. At least.

whelan2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120661851#Comment_120661851

Not to mention on their phone....

CreadanLady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120661824#Comment_120661824

Havent even sat a test, never mind passed.

It is absolutely a situation where the licencing requirements have been left in the 1960s because it suits farmers and contractors and politicians who have a rural voter base would fear a massive backlash if they tried to bring it up to a stricter standard. As much as I like and agree with Michael Healy Rae on many things, himself and his imbecile brother, and the likes of Mattie McGrath would be dead against any change. (Danny would probably like to be able to legally drive a tractor at 12 while piss drunk if he had his way)

I get the why, but it is not right all the same.

But what confuses me then is that the government would be terrified to tackle this issue, but at the same time will quite happily stand on the necks of farmers with the likes of nitrates, climate change and so on. But I suppose the difference there is that they can just blame the EU for that, whereas they can't blame the EU for if they wanted to change driver licencing for tractor drivers. Maybe that is the reason for the difference.

CreadanLady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120661851#Comment_120661851

I think it should be more in line with the C/C1 licensing for trucks. At the end of the day, modern agri machinery has more in common with trucks in terms of size, weight and the damage that they can inflict if they are in a collision.

The current W licencing is based on the assumption that the average collision will be a Ferguson 20 colliding with the priest's Morris Minor down at the parish pump.

Probably a reasonable policy back in those days, but it is ludicrously outdated in 2023.

eastie17

Spot on, the gubberment would be much better off tackling a real problem like this instead of the stupid shite they go on with on drink labelling and other things that only the twitter gang pay attention to.

Yes some contractors and farmers wouldn't be happy but there is no reasonable argument to keep the status quo, its an old loophole that should have been changed years ago.

There's nothing stopping them driving on private land at any stage so a farmer cant be saying you are depriving me of my help around the farm.

hopeso

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120661878#Comment_120661878

I'm not disagreeing with anything you've said, but is it not the EU who controls driving licencing throughout Europe, including Ireland?

looksee

Totally agree - its generally a good idea to stay home and not venture onto the road past my house when any one of several farmers on the road are cutting silage. Some of the drivers are fine and are obviously in control of their tractors, but some are not and don't have a clue about stopping distances etc. Modern tractors are powerful machines.

I have had the experience of coming round a corner on a more or less one track road to find a tractor and trailer coming at me at a speed not suited to the corner they were approaching. I dived into the ditch, fortunately there was no gully, and came to a halt with a back tractor wheel as close to my window as you can get without touching the car. The trailer jack-knifed and the young driver looked very shaken. Hopefully it slowed him down for the future!

10-10-20

Not trying to detract from the seriousness of the incidents and the pain and hurt which the families feel at this tragic time (my thoughts and condolences to all affected), but I do wonder whether there is a correlation to the larger national issues of the cost-of-living and given that the country is at full-employment - does this put pressure on farmers to pull in younger helpers for farm jobs? Younger of course means less well skilled, more risk.

I remember myself at the age of 13 helping on the farm in Sligo bringing in the bales on a 50's Fordson. Brakes, nah? Just drop the rear hitch, be grand.

looksee

I doubt it, there have always been young teens driving tractors, but the tractors have got bigger, more powerful and more enclosed so you are somewhat insulated from the outside world. I was taught to drive one age 12, by my 12 year old cousin - in a field, on an ancient tractor, in the 50s. Roll bars? No chance.

Siamsa Sessions

I agree 100% with the sentiments expressed here: no untrained 17-year-old should be allowed near a tractor. For all the difference it'll make, I'll make the point in the next YouTube video.

But we need to see the "enemy" here if any change is going to be made to driving license laws. This isn't a political rant from me, but FG and FF were both lobbied by "strong farmers" back when they were trying to increase the age that young lads could leave school. The "strong farmers" were worried about not having workers if young lads were not leaving school early. It's an awful way of looking at the world, when the same men were usually sending their own sons off to university or the seminary, but I could see their view from a business sense.

I'd be assuming the agri-contractors association would be making similar points about labour availability if Govt wanted to stop young lads driving tractors now. The contractors would probably be supported by some of the farm organisations in this regard.

As an aside, I'd blame the decreasing respect for food and the constant drive for cheap food as part of the reason contractors can't pay grown men and women to drive their machines.

Any lobbying of politicians to change the current law needs to counter the above argument; e.g. grant for contractor to train drivers, better enforcement and big fines for contractors and farmers who let young lads up on tractors out on the road, etc.

Grueller

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120661911#Comment_120661911

Nearly every farm now has outside blocks of land for silage making, rendering road haulage a mandatory task.

By the way, I agree that the licencing laws must change.

looksee

Presumably tractors have to be insured to drive on the roads? Do insurance companies not specify a minimum age for drivers? Given how difficult it is for young drivers to get car insurance, it would seem logical to have the same for young tractor drivers.

CreadanLady

@10-10-20 I wouldn't think it would be influenced much by the cost of living. It has been this way for many a year. Young lads of 16 and 17 are always mad to go driving things. Meanwhile farmers and contractors are keen to get the drivers who they can pay the least money for. Also the fact that it is very often the sons of said farmers and contractors on school holidays, who probably get paid only pocket money, if anything at all.

And other rural 16/17 year olds in farming circles, living at home with mammy with no life expenses beyond their Prime habit, will quite happily work for below minimum wage in cash.

Sure i remember it when i was that age in 2003 or so. Friends of mine talking about how flat out we could go and comparing stories of near misses and close shaves. I myself was the bright spark who blocked a main road because the trailer of bales I had would not fit under a railway bridge. Why? Because I was a foolhardy young buck who simply didn't have the maturity or foresight to think about my route, assess the risks, and plan my journey in advance. I was probably more pre-occupied with having good tunes blaring into the cab from the radio. Now, thankfully was wasn't a complete fúckwit and I had the sense to realise the situation I was approaching, slow down and stop at the problem. Thankfully through good luck I was eventually able to creep through by dropping the hitch and crossing on the other side of the road which had a small bit more head room with the aid of a man who got out of his car to help manage traffic.

This was with a 40km/hr TS115 and a 30ft bale trailer. The equivalent in 2023 would be significantly faster, and much heavier as large square bales are more the norm now for straw rather than the relatively lightweight roundies.

whelan2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120662111#Comment_120662111

Contractors around here don't take on 16/17 year old. I assume insurance is the main issue

CreadanLady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120662111#Comment_120662111

Well you see for a car it is the driver/owner who is "mostly" insured. But with a business, and farming, it is the vehicle that is insured, and usually it is something like any authorised employee of the business is insured to drive it.

Is there ever conditions on the farm/contractor fleet insurance to say that a certain vehicle or class of vehicles is insured only conditionally? Such as a driver being a certain age, formal training etc? I do not know. But since you see young lads are driving everywhere, I doubt such conditions are a thing in insurance.

CreadanLady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120662170#Comment_120662170

Maybe yeah. On the other hand I would have to think, if I was a contractor or big farmer, having just invested € 100,000 or more in a new tractor or machine, am I seriously going to let a little acne riddled teenager on his school holidays be responsible for it, even if he is from a farming background?

But the thing is, farming is a funny business. Risk taking and chancing things is the usual way of things a lot of the time. Safety is usually very far down the list or priorities.

Of course the other side of the argument is this - well if you don't have 16-20 year olds doing it, then who are you going to get to do it? In all fairness now, good luck to anyone who wants to hire only mature, competent, experienced drivers and machine operators. Anyone who is serious about working on plant & machinery as a career is working in formal employment with the larger building and civil engineering contractors, getting paid at least standard industry rate, with defined holidays, pension, training provided or paid for, and all the rest. They are hardly going to jack that in to go at silage season work for some laaad wanting you doing 18 hour days 7 days a week paying cash and whinging that he will sort you out next week who also expects you to be a mechanic when things break down.

And an agri contractor who does want to hire mature, competent, experienced drivers will have to offer the pay and conditions that such staff will require to entice them to take the work. And if they do that, then the will have to charge a very substantially higher rate to the farmer and will probably go out of business because the farmer will balk at the high rate and get a cheaper alternative contractor who has a lower standard of driver.

That is the reality, but at the same time, it doesn't make it right or acceptable to have teenagers doing it. For the good of everyone.

White Clover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120662253#Comment_120662253

You make a lot of very valid points but some that generalise a bit much.

Re safety, I started driving tractors when I was 7 years old. It was always drilled in to me to respect the vehicle. Safety was to the fore with my father. As a result I never went through the mad phase. When I turned 16 I was out at silage and again at 17 was driving the car. I’m sure there was plenty more like me with 10 years driving experience before hitting the road.

Grueller

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120662301#Comment_120662301

I was like that too WC. Loads of time on machines around home and then out hauling at 16. The difference is I went from a Ford 5000 and a 13' tipping trailer to a Ford 7810 and a 16' silage trailer. Not a massive jump. Young lads now go from Massey 4255s up to fends 724s and a 22'plus trailer and from 40k up to 58k with a heavier load. It's a far bigger far more dangerous jump.

whelan2

Yes there's a big difference in what we drove and what 16 year old are driving now.

I passed a tractor being driven on the N25 last week & the lad driving it was on a video call

while driving the tractor! Unfortunately deaths will continue as no one is prepared to do

anything about it in eoither those driving or enforcement!

Base price

There is a EU proposal to standardise tractor driving licences across member States. Apparently it has been delayed until 2024 which I presume is for a review. The proposal is that drivers (16yo+) driving tractors (max 40kwp) up to 20t (vehicle or vehicle combination) for agricultural/forestry purposes only are covered under Cat T1.

https://www.farmersjournal.ie/common-eu-tractor-driving-licence-proposed-705776

I wouldn't place all the blame on young lads. There is a young lady that I occasionally meet driving a MF something or another with those annoying over extended mirror guards racing on the roads be it with a slurry tanker, rake or baler in tow. She is an insolent yoke with no respect for other road users.

Edit to add - I drive a lorry and sometimes draw a trailer behind it for hay or straw.

Deeec

Totally agree - teens driving huge dangerous machines and towing trailers but yet can't drive a car is ludicrous.

It has nothing to do with labour shortage or saving money. In my experience the tractors are usually driven by sons or relations of the farmers. Tractors are often taken out for a spin also without their parents consent.

Most contractors near us don't use teen lads anymore because it's too risky.

Kato74

My 15 year old nephew has been driving the tractor on public roads for about 2 years now.

Also has a farming quad that he drives to the local village in Donegal because it is a long walk (about a mile).

They recently got him a pile of crap car that he can take also.

Some of his friends have tractors & quads too.

They all think it is not a problem & he is sensible enough not to mess about.

It's a rural thing, ahh sure it`ll be grand, hardly anyone else uses the road.

Funny part was St. Patrick's day. They all drive to the village main street & drive their tractors for the parade. Gardai stood clapping them as they drove by.

CreadanLady

@Kato74 That is mad. But I don't think what you descibe would be terribly common countrywide. I think it may be that the extreme disregard shown there is more of a Donegal issue - the county has an abysmally poor record with road safety. The county has a road fatality rate far out of proportion to the rest of the country. It's been like that for years.

Quads is another regular source of fatalities on farms. And most often it is young lads going mad on them and getting themselves killed. I know of only one instance of a female quad driver (and her daughter also being carried) being killed in a quad accident and it was not really her fault - their quad was struck by a tractor driving the road......which was being driven by, you guessed it, a teenage young lad.

Now I am not laying all blame at the young lads. There are some reckless female tractor drivers I am sure, as you describe, but i would say it is reasonable to presume that they few and far between both because a) there are less female tractor drivers and b) women tend, in a general sense, to be less prone to reckless risk taking behaviour, although it can occur.

Kato74

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120662770#Comment_120662770

Totally agree with all of that. The amount of lads I spent my holidays with up there that are dead because of acting the idiots in cars is unreal. In one car alone back in the 90`s, five lads died when they crashed the car. Many have followed, they all think they are pro rally drivers.

I do say to my sister, It's all great until something happens, crash tractor / car, flip quad & it lands on him. And my son will not be getting in his tractor, on his quad or in his car with him.

SOPHIE THE DOG

Since when is "about a mile" a long walk?

Kato74

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120662817#Comment_120662817

I know, it's lazy parenting IMO.

tinofapples

Agree but picture the scene when the contractors can't get people to drive their machines, that's probably why it hasn't changed

CreadanLady

Well that is also an issue. No mature, experienced driver who has made plant and machinery their career is going to want to work on agri. There is more money, less hours, and a more formal employment structure to be had with the building and civil engineering sector. Plus all your training provided or paid for. An agri contractor wouldn't be able to compete with that unless they seriously jacked up rates to the farmer, who will probably not want to pay that kind of money, won't have it because the meat factories won't give them enough for their product etc,

Fixing a safety problem lands you into an labour problem and fixing the labour problem lands you into an economic problem.

whelan2

Look at electric scooters. Kids out on them on roads with zero road sense and no helmet. Parents probably haven't a clue where they are. BTW I assume when we mention lads this covers boys and girls.

CreadanLady

Well not really. Because it is overwhelmingly lads, ie young males, who are the ones engaging in this sort of dangerous and reckless tractor driving behaviour. I'm not saying girls do not do it, but lookit, search for news articles about fatal tractor accidents on the roads and it'll be overwhelmingly be males, and a very large portion of the drivers will be on the younger side.

So a) there are relatively few female tractor drivers, and b) female's tend not to engage in the sort of reckless risk taking that males tend to do. All things considered, I would say that women tractor drivers are not an issue in the same way that young men are.

Now of course, both genders are equally succeptible to accidents arising out of lack of experience, lack of training, and young age meaning they have not developed the full cognitive abilities to assess day to day risks. But ver definitely, young males are notorious for plainly reckless behaviour in a way that girls, in general, do not seem to do.

So I will stand behind my sexism on this point. Yes. I am laying blame here largely at the door of young inexperienced, immature males.

CreadanLady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120663029#Comment_120663029

On the scooter thing, yes true. But someone going mad on a scooter generally will only get themselves killed. The aren't at risk of completely wiping out ,crushing and killing multiple other road users in a matter seconds in the same way as an out of control heavy tractor and trailer.

NIMAN

Some very tragic stories of late.

I live in a rural area and would often question the age of young lads I see driving tractors?

I would say they are rarely stopped by the Guards either.

But whilst it is acceptable to the families, these accidents will continue to happen. I would say these youngsters aren't stealing the tractor and joyriding them, they are in them with permission. And when accidents do occur, I would guess that the parents find it hard to live with themselves.

There should be noone in charge of a vehicle on a road under 18, IMHO.

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120663177#Comment_120663177

Most of the time they are driving with permission but not always - I have heard of young lads taking tractors out for a spin while parents are out, away etc. Teen lads think they are well capable of driving tractors when they are not - they see no danger whatsoever. Its all about showing off at that age. There was an inquest today reported in the news of a 12yr old who died in an accident after going for a drive in his mothers car. He took the car while she was asleep obviously without permission.

I remember my husband saying when he was in secondary school in the 90s ( small rural town) it was normal for lads to drive tractors to school - ( no Im not joking). He said there could be 5 tractors or more parked in the school carpark every day! I dont know if this is still a thing but I wouldnt be surprised if it is.

K.G.

The thing is most of the work is now being done by 16/17 year old.the popular opinion seems to be that driving tractors is for fools and young lads and doesn't pay any farmer to do their own work.so anyone who uses a contractor is the first step in the problem as often the only fellas that will go at this work under these conditions are young lads.its grand to say they should use older people but !ho wants to under the conditions-long hours, poor rates, intermittent work and demanding customers alot of whom now have never done the jobs themselves so have no clue what's involved. It's like drug dealers-if there was no demand for coke there d be no drug dealers

whelan2

Daughter got her driving licence last year when she turned 18. Covid delayed things. The best thing that happened her was she crashed her car, before that she thought she was invincible in the car. Now she was very lucky, no one else involved and she made **** of the car but she's a much better driver now because of it.

selectamatic

I disagree about most contractors using 16/17 year olds. I'm in the northwest and nearly every local contractor from the rough and ready operators to the top of the range boyos have lads that are in the 18-23 range or even a touch older.

People see a "young fella" and just instantly think 16 year old.

Invariably the 16 year olds around here are cutting about in their Aul fellas or their grandfather's tractor. Off doing road runs or meeting up in town. But full time contractor work not so much.

To bring in a test of the c/c1/cpc type with I'm guessing similar costs for tractors would be a hard task to do without creating a labour shortage of near crisis proportions throughout a the agri and road/building sectors.

It'd need to be heavily subsidised or not enough would be able to afford it and those that could would be mad to go driving tractors for pennies compared to artics.

Interestingly the EU were looking into the merits of lowering the car age to 16 recently enough.

Dunedin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120663875#Comment_120663875

An expensive but valuable life lesson…

looksee

I did much the same, passed my test (first go) bought a car, turned it over several times quite spectacularly within a week (there were some slightly mitigating circumstances, but mostly me), been driving over 50 years now without another accident. (touch wood).

magicbastarder

Several times within a week? Were you stock car racing?

Kimbot

Does insurance in a tractor cover the carrying of passengers?

I see plenty of tractors around my way and there are 3/4 people in the cab flying around the roads.

looksee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120664838#Comment_120664838

😁 ok, syntax crisis!

bigroad

What has the RSA to say about this .All I hear on the TV/Radio it an add telling everyone else to be careful of tractors on the road.

Their a complete joke of an organisation.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120664873#Comment_120664873

Ah, i get you now!

whelan2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120664841#Comment_120664841

I doubt it

Wildly Boaring

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120664875#Comment_120664875

HSA told the rest of us to stay off the road during silage cutting

https://www.independent.ie/farming/machinery/cyclists-and-pedestrians-should-stay-off-the-road-when-silage-harvesting-is-underway-hsa-senior-advisor/a538168024.html

Another here who agrees that tractor (W) licence should at least be limited to those with the car (B) test passed.

As teens we went from growing up driving small fords and masseys to likes of JD 3650s to draw grain. They were relatively big but with narrow wheels and standard boxes, maxing out at say 20 mph.

Nothing in the 90s that we drove had 40k boxes and it wasn't until 02 or 03 we even saw 50k boxes.

There were still plenty of issues with young drivers back then, particularly those who didn't grow up on tractors. 2 lads put tractors on their roofs and another couldn't stop at a junction and ended with a car under the trailer. None of those lads were experienced enough to be doing what they were doing.

To me the faster speeds have been a game changer and should come with better driving standards.

The larger machines and wider tyres are also an issues but 50k with a trailer is shifting, particularly on small roads.

green daries

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120665002#Comment_120665002

I'd have to say I think you've hit the nail on the head there it's the improvement in tractor speeds cab comfort and overall size and power output has really changed the skillset needed to drive these yoke on the roads.....I see here at home the younger lads are not capable of managing the 50 k box's safely