School resignations and recruitment problems, 2023-2024

rainbowtrout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121070328#Comment_121070328

I don't know if teachers on the ground would oppose it. I can only speak for myself, but I live in the west of Ireland and I'd have no objections to a teacher in Dublin getting an allowance. I know how expensive it is to live there and housing costs are insane.

Sometimes unions can be out of step with what is happening on the ground. Just from talking to other teachers in my staffroom, none of them would want to teach in Dublin because of the cost and we have a few Dubs on staff, one who specifically said she came west due to the cost of living and wouldn't go back.

It would be fairly easy to implement - if a teacher is employed in a school in Dublin then the allowance is added to their pay by payroll in the relevant ETB or Dept of Ed, because if they are working in a Dublin school they are either living in Dublin or commuting into Dublin so either way it's expensive.

I'm sure there would be some argument along the way about teachers who work in Kildare, Meath, Louth and Wicklow etc, but it's not unrealistic to focus on the most expensive county in the country.

Peter Flynt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121078176#Comment_121078176

Your generosity of spirit towards your colleagues in Dublin and surrounding counties would not be the norm amongst teaching colleagues in counties further west due to good old fashioned Irish begrudgery which is quite remarkable as over 60% of the revenue of the state is generated in Dublin. It's also interesting that none of your colleagues would like to work in Dublin. . . I wonder how many would agree with your stance that a Dublin allowance should be allowed.

gaiscioch

Looking at educationposts.ie over the course of a period of time is very interesting. Posts are being readertised for even the top fee-charging schools in the State (i.e. where all teachers will get school-paid positions, very often a number of them together in the current shortage of school staff, on top of their ordinary salary) at this late date. Are people starting, and leaving very quickly? Or are people just not taking the jobs if the job is in Dublin?

Intertestingly, some of those schools are saying 'An allowance for relocation and recruitment may be available.... Assistance will be given in finding accommodation if required.' If such schools are having difficulty recruiting, how hard must it be for principals in schools without those financial incentives. What's going on in teacher employment in DEIS schools at the moment?

This morning on educationposts.ie, there are 296 jobs available in post-primary schools in all 26 counties. 125 of those jobs, or 42% of them, are in Dublin (28.5% of the total population was estimated to be in Dublin in 2021: https://tinyurl.com/2hxeck6a):

https://educationposts.ie/posts/second_level?sb=application_closing_date&sd=0&p=1&cy=27&pd=&vc=&ptl=

rainbowtrout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121083638#Comment_121083638

Some people just can't afford to move to Dublin/can't get accommodation so are happy to take a job elsewhere that is more available I'd guess. I don't see accommodation issues easing in Dublin anytime soon, so it's not going to get better for Dublin schools in the short term.

am_zarathustra

It'll show up the disfunctional schools in the urban areas too, if you were looking to jump ship it would be a great time. With the right subjects you could be permanent out the gate.

rainbowtrout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121086088#Comment_121086088

Except that schools are an essential service and every county has them, so teachers that can't afford to live in Dublin will move to more affordable parts of the country or abroad. That impacts on students attending schools in Dublin where teaching positions are not filled and students are sitting without a teacher, in some cases for multiple subjects. I live in what would be considered to be a disadvantaged town in the west and houses are being snapped up here. Plenty moved down from Dublin from 2020 onwards, easy to sell up in Dublin, clear the mortgage and buy a similar or bigger house down here for cash with what is leftover.

rainbowtrout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121086781#Comment_121086781

Don't know why you are taking that attitude, ultimately teachers will find more affordable places to live, but students in some areas will not have teachers, or will not have qualified teachers. That's where the impact will be.

rainbowtrout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121086859#Comment_121086859

If a school can't fill the position with a qualified teacher, then they may be forced to hire someone who is not a qualified teacher, not a difficult concept

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121079169#Comment_121079169

Wouldn't a dublin allowance have to be very high to rncourage enough people to teach there?

What's the point of a couple of grand when you are looking at huge rents for shoeboxes etc

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121087018#Comment_121087018

Well it's that or kids go home

Which do you think most parents would choose....for some it's just a childminding service remember...that's the level you are at with some people and they ain't the worst by any means.

Does that shock you too?😇

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121087774#Comment_121087774

Any school I've been in they generally do the best they can to get someone that's qualified, or has a degree 8n relevant area...

It wasn't very common in recent times for an untrained/unqualified person to be in front of a class.....but there is a shortage in some areas, simple as that. Managements can't magic up qualified people if they aren't there....they can try smalgame classes, ask retired teachers to help out take certain classes etc etc if they have to but ultimately there's a mismatch in certain areas and one can only paper over the cracks so much.....

Everyone thinks the problems are the teachers faults....its almost as if they don't realise they have bosses too and that the teachers are just cogs in the system...

Treppen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121087829#Comment_121087829

True that, Ive heard pat Kenny on numerous occasions playing the blame game saying that career brake should be halted. Guy hasn't got a clue, I know a school in Dublin where 10 teachers resigned as they weren't granted career break, simple, they voted with their feet and left Dublin for the schticks or UAE for the money. They ain't coming back Pat.

Dublin allowance just won't cut it.Name an amount that would encourage a teacher to stay in Dublin? I say €12,000 p/a. No way that's going to fly with the department.

Although overnight 14 new TDs were created, no debate about cost. So there you go

Peter Flynt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121091279#Comment_121091279

Pat Kenny is a vile person. His hatred for teachers is so blatant and obvious that there no attempt at objectivity.

Peter Flynt

On a separate issue I wonder if there is a legal issue there against the Minister/State if children are being denied SEN assistance that cannot be provided due to a lack of teachers?

hamburgham

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121091279#Comment_121091279

Does that not mean that permanent positions are now available to others instead? One way or the other, there were going to be vacancies to fill and is it not better that they are permanent positions rather than short term, temporary positions?

I agree that career breaks should be stopped. It distorts the market. If you don’t want the job, resign and let someone who does want it have it.

Peter Flynt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121092434#Comment_121092434

Career breaks are the norm in a wide variety of careers. Why should the terms and conditions of employment of teachers be made worse because the government won't pay teachers properly?

hamburgham

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121092540#Comment_121092540

They are not the norm at all. In what other sector does this happen?

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121092306#Comment_121092306

I've often felt that when listrning to him and wondered why

I mean for a guy who was on 900k per annum at one point it just seems odd.

Peter Flynt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121092968#Comment_121092968

They are the norm.

Peter Flynt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121093098#Comment_121093098

It's very strange. Kenny's hatred for teachers is visceral and clearly unhinged and yet someone told me his wife was a teacher (which I find difficult to believe given Kenny's salary).

rainbowtrout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121092434#Comment_121092434

Career breaks aren't really relevant overall. It doesn't matter if the teacher resigns permanently or takes a career break. The job will be advertised as a one year contract either way for the following year, and after that it will depend on whether the career break teacher comes back or not. That aside, schools can't get teachers to fill these positions regardless of how the job arises - particularly in Dublin.

rainbowtrout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121092309#Comment_121092309

My gut feeling is that it would be hard to win that case, if the school is providing the hours to the child by allocating on the timetable, but can't get a teacher to fill the position, there isn't a whole lot they can do. The same could be argued for any mainstream position. That's not to be blasé about special needs, but there are shortages and no court case in the country is going to fix it if no one is willing to take the job because they can't afford to live in Dublin.

am_zarathustra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121096625#Comment_121096625

Career breaks really aren't an issue. We got a couple of teachers back this year who wouldn't have come back to the school as soon if they hadn't a job to come back to. They'd have happily resigned either if they had been denied and would probably have still come back but we might have lost the continuity. It's not 2010, we'd just be driving teachers away and anywhere it's been tried they have left anyway but on poorer terms so just another push factor!

Treppen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121092434#Comment_121092434

Yup permanent positions available and are going unfilled (look at education posts for Dublin). Subs brought in to cover the cracks and SEN teachers taken from small groups to cover large classes.

Career breaks are NOT the problem... as I said teachers who weren't even granted the career breaks up and left anyway.

noplacehere

Career breaks not the issue here either. Full time RPT positions went unfilled. Resignation or career break we can't fill the posts. Teachers have resigned and just gone off themselves but then we can't even get them when they get back so the school is now at the complete loss of the teacher two years later still with unqualified people holding the job when at least if the career break had been granted they could have slotted back in

Peter Flynt

The reason why teachers don't care if their career breaks are denied is quite simple. . . they know there's a job to walk into if they return due to the shortages.

Denying career breaks is just mean-spirited, counter-productive and nasty from idiotic principals which gains them nothing as no one is going to be forced to stay in a position against their will.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121153226#Comment_121153226

Career breaks are great for teachers as they provide a risk free shot at trying something else, not so good for schools needing to replace them though. They aren't normal in any area outside of the public sector. I would imagine many would not leave if they had to come back and find a permanent job again.

I think a solution to the actual issue would be to use some of the 10-20% new builds currently allocated for social housing for essential workers (like teachers, nurses, guards etc) that need to live in the area. This would have the affect of solving the actual problem, teachers needing somewhere reasonably priced to live, it is a targeted approach. Many older teachers are living in properties they own, so blanket Dublin allowance would result in additional money for those who don't need it. Of course if unions want a Dublin allowance they could negotiate for that during pay talks.

gaiscioch

'Primary principals warn education system is on ‘verge of breaking’ as teacher supply issues bite'

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/education/2023/11/17/primary-principals-warn-education-system-is-on-verge-of-breaking-as-teacher-supply-issues-bite/

Treppen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121380547#Comment_121380547

Maybe the INTO would consider industrial action?

Although principals aren't Into are they? Is it the IPPN?

byhookorbycrook

Blaming career breaks is a handy way to divert from the real issues of teacher supply . The DES media spin pushed this narrative, until it was pointed out that several politicians are themselves haven’t resigned their teaching posts , Minister Foley being one .

The truth is that many of those training as teachers simply decide not to pursue teaching as a career here . They don’t take career breaks , they go elsewhere . Terms and conditions here are simply not attractive, no matter what the likes of Pat Kenny would have people believe .