DoneDeal Report - EV Average Prices

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120635506#Comment_120635506

I am asking, in ten years time, when that EV you gave the example of, is 17 years old, would you have any concerns about whether it's still useful as a car in the same way that there are plenty 17 year old ICE cars knocking around or will it have been completely made redundant by issues with parts/maintenance or "newer technology".

Padraig Mor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120635559#Comment_120635559

Yeah, that's what I mean - most marques once you look at something half comparable (not a Skoda Fabia etc) you're into Tesla money, and above, very quickly. I've never really agreed with this whole "EVs are much more expensive" spiel - once you made a fair comparison (auto, spec, power) oftentimes the EV is similar price or less - e.g. when I got an ID4, the equivalent Tiguan (i.e. not the base which is what's often used for comparison) was €10k+ more! When I got my first Leaf for €25k in 2015 I had folks saying I was mad when I could have got a Polo for €20k - yet the real comparison would have been an automatic Golf with satnav etc - way more costly than the Leaf!

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120635496#Comment_120635496

It's a marketing persons dream is what it is.

Stevie2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120635597#Comment_120635597

What about the people that want a new car to get from A to B? That don't care about spec or has everyone gotten posh :)

Old diesel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120635587#Comment_120635587

You actually think a euro 6 diesel or petrol will make it to 17 years old without big ticket expenses??????.

Let's consider all the potential failure points.....

Turbo....

Injectors

Dual clutch auto gearbox and related components....

Euro 6 emissions related stuff like ad blue, particulate filters and what not.

Engine failure.

Timing chain issues.

Unknown design faults like a head gasket going at 150,000 miles as standard spec but you can't actually do an old school head gasket change or skimming of the head. Or some fool making it hard to change a timing chain.....

Padraig Mor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120635671#Comment_120635671

Nothing at all wrong whatsoever in just wanting a workhorse and not really giving a shite beyond that - in fact it probably makes more sense in many ways! Dacia Duster or Jogger should do the job for them - perfectly fine cars!

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120635603#Comment_120635603

Don't think you can call it a dream when many new technologies follow the same profile with an s curve adoption. What makes you think EVs are suddenly different to any other disruptive technology. I'd love to your published research into the area. It would likely be very valuable to the industry for it's counter view point.

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120635691#Comment_120635691

I am not saying that you won't have issues with a 17 year old car and through out it's lifetime you will end up replacing parts, however these is a known facts and indeed risks as are the costs associated with same. You don't have that level of visibility on any EV - which again is probably fine for the small percentage of people that can buy a new EV every year or two, but not for the vast majority of people who cant.

unkel

@Old diesel - "In 1993 I remember the last of the Mercedes 190s (W201) been promoted by a dealer as the last chance (ever) to buy a brand new Merc for under 25 k Irish punts."

And to put that into perspective, that was roughly the price of a brand new 3 bed semi in a Dublin suburb like Lucan.

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120635749#Comment_120635749

Of course it's a marketing persons dream.

Call people who buy the product early on with little or no rationale form same "edgy/cool/positive" names, and people who decide to wait more derogatory terms.

Marketers show this type of thing to people, people get a FOMO/dont want to be in the negatively labeled group and buy etc.

For the record, I don't have issues with EV's - just their current cost point, second hand market, charging infrastructure and in some cases the race to get rid of "older" - tried and tested - technology.

bmc58

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120632621#Comment_120632621

Ha,ha.You just can't beat the Irish for spotting loopholes.

Old diesel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120635758#Comment_120635758

A known fact yes but I've yet to see an anti EVer come up with realistic costings for common ICE car issues.

Dual mass flywheel - 1 k

DSG gearbox - shall we go with 4.5 k....

BMW timing chain - 1500 quid on a good day. 3 k on a bad day.....

Turbo - call it 1500 quid.

Engine - 3 k from done deal for hopefully a reconditioned unit. Plus fitting....

On an individual basis all those faults are resolvable....

What anti EVers fail to address is that over say 300,000 miles then you can have *several* of the above on the SAME car.....

Note that we don't actually know yet how Euro 6 cars will actually perform at 17 years old....

What we do know however is that from the early 90s onwards people tended to not spend money thats beyond the current value of the car.

So if an engine on a diesel is 4 k to fix but the fixed car is only worth 2 k - the car will frequently get scrapped.

That's a life limiting factor on *all* cars.

I often see it implied by anti EVers that they will keep their current diesel *forever* rather than buy an EV.

However the mindset involved is one that involves the following....

Repair cost 6,000

Car value 3,000

Cost to buy the replacement you want - 30,000.

Because the car you want as replacement is 30,000 you spend the 6,000 repair.

An interesting approach but yet one you could also adopt with an EV.....

Edit

Anti EVers will often insist that you can't spend 10 k on a battery if car is only worth 2 k....

However many of them say they are prepared to do the spend 10 k on a worth 2 k car in order to avoid an EV

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120635464#Comment_120635464

Our 2 Renault fluences are still on the road since 2012.

Sounds like an EV is not for you. That’s fine.

traco

Diesels have problems, petrols have problems and EV's will have problems. The reality is that everything is more likely to fail as it ages. My brother in law got charged €2,300 for the infotainment system in his diesel passat. Yes it was a failure in an ICE but and electronic failure. The only thing that isn't fully established will be the cost to repair EV's and that will settle down in time and there will be lots to be repaired or more like boards swapped and coded due to some discreet 2c capacitor going pop.

To get back to the OP its very interesting when you jump through threads on the forum. There are some great deals listed on EV bargain threads and then there is the BMW i4 and i5 threads where the prices are getting crazy. This is also not limited to EVs. I was in Germany a few weeks ago and was given a C-Class Merc. Nice and flashy but touch a panel and it squeaked. Looked great with its infotainment etc but I genuinely thought it was a 35k maybe 40k car. I was shocked to see it starts from 66k so its a 70k odd machine really OTR. Madness for the build quality.

New car pricing is a bit daft at the moment. The EV sector is still some what limited and the article should be taken wth a pinch of salt. The current offerings are definitley towards the more premium end of the market so the numbers skew that way. In time as the Chinese and Tesla (who seem to be starting to recognise that market share is more important than profits longterm) will start to fill the lower end sectors and restore some balance. I'm in a posh Northside Dublin suburb and see a few MGs and some Ora Funky Cats around lately. I also see the Teslas and Taycans but there is definitely a resonable mix starting to appear.

That said the reality is that sticker prices will be higher than before but the offerings may be more affordable than previously. Every next gen micra, fiesta etc where always more expensive than the previous. Current prices are only an issue if you really have to change your car, if you don't keep what you have and don't sweat it. These so called news headlines seem like just click bait to me and are best ignored.

zg3409

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120635758#Comment_120635758

When you say you don't have that level of visibility, most people who buy new sell the car within 4 years, long term reliability is not their problem.

Older EVs like the leaf are very well known. Cabin heaters go (for sale on ebay), charge units go (for sale on ebay and repaired in UK), various charging port lock and suspension issues.

Typically the batteries and motors don't fail and entire battery is easily replaced and individual cells are relatively easily identified and replaced from ebay.

EVs tend to give less issues than ICE, yes driving any vehicle outside of warranty is a risk but EVs typically have 7 years on major parts while VW ICE is only 3 years.

Garages that swap engines now will be swapping battery cells and motors in the future. I do my EV servicing myself, including replacing the reduction box (gearbox) oil myself. I can read individual cell voltages and battery health along with pulling error codes. I know the common issues and how to fix them, mostly from YouTube videos!.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120635791#Comment_120635791

I think your over reacting to what is now a standard way of referring to the observed progression of technology adoption. I don't think you'll achieve anything by complaining about it here.

What we can say is that EV adoption for new car's in Ireland is only since 2022 crossing into the Early Adoption phase, the early majority phase starts at 34%. For used car's there's an obvious lag. So the same curve is a few years behind.

The S curve seems to be occurring in other markets, I don't think Ireland is going to be the exception.

Stevie2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120635841#Comment_120635841

How much to fix these if they go wrong in a 10k, 7 year old out of warranty EV?

Battery pack, inverter, dc charger, bms, electric motor, controller, DC-DC Converter, onboard charger, transmission

To give an idea, a new electric motor for a 7 year old Ioniq is €8000 on it's own, never mind the labour

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120636063#Comment_120636063

If your too worried about buying out of warranty EV's whilst the market for third party repairs develops then wait. You seem incredulous that are so many unknowns when it comes to repairs based on a period of time (7 years ago) when less than 400 EVs were bought new. Do you really think the repair and maintenance industry won't develop as the number of older EVs on the road increases.

For someone interested enough in EVs to be on the forum you do seem to have wild ideas about them. You have until 2042 for the ICE ban to be forcing you into a 7 year old EV.

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120635953#Comment_120635953

TBF, I don't think anyone will achieve anything by complaining about anything here. 😁

It is a marketing tool btw (the terminology should be evidence of that) - masquarading as something else but look - fair enough. As I said above, I aint against alternatives to ICE transport but I see significant issues with rollout of EV technology over the short and medium term. I don't think people shouldnt be allowed question these variables:

Cost, availability of chargers, second hand cost, maintainence issues over time, overall green credentials of the technology and product itself, particularily when it looks like there will be very little choice in the coming years but to go EV.

StonedRaider

Not anti anything...but I do like being able to sort and fix my vehicles myself.

I have a 27 year old Italian, 21 year old German, 15 year old French thing in the garage and can do almost everything needed. Owned a Volvo XC for 5years and apart from wear and tear consumables, nothing broke. Sold it for a tidy profit earlier this year. Don't fancy an ev but most likely will have to in the more distant future. We'll see

Stevie2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120636217#Comment_120636217

Not to the same level as ICE no, manufacturers have learned from Apple etc in terms of locking down electronic devices, not in interest to make things easy, lots of money to be made in dealer repairs. They are going to lose so much money in ICE parts and repairs, as EVs have much less parts and gonna have to recoup somewhere, should be new legislation to protect consumer here imo

Also are the staff gonna pop up from the ground? It's hard to get staff in any industry now, especially in physical labour, I can't imagine too young kids are gonna be electronic mechanics now and older ICE mechanics will have work for a while yet.

It is sad that so many people hold the EV manufacturers above all reproach like yourself, defending them at every opportunity, any criticism is jumped on the clapping seals gang here

The positives of EVs should be recognized, but the negatives should be called out. If owners are being locked in to only dealer parts, there is a problem. If manufacturers are using DRM to force the issue (like John Deere does) it is a much bigger problem.

Honestly I believe every single car should come with a full factory service manual, and that every single vehicle should display diagnostic information on its screen. Put the right to repair back into people's hands, not just dealers.

OBD2 was a good step, but it needs to go further. Most cars lock the vast majority of their diagnostic information and repair options behind specialized protocols that require a very expensive(5k+) tools to access.

I've seen users with older Leafs, Ioniqs, i3's etc have issues on forums and in the end they just gave up, as outside main dealers charging a fortune they had no where else to go.

Stevie2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120635703#Comment_120635703

If Dacia made a Sandero Stepway with the usual 60kWh battery to do 300km motorway and no frills for 20k I would buy one tomorrow, but it will be 30k and the ICE is 18k

For 18k Dacia make a 44bhp, 26kWh battery with 130km motorway range and it has a top speed of 120km/h and 0-100 in 20secs :), the go kart known as Dacia Spring

SlowChris

Cars are getting prohibitively expensive. Only those with no/tiny mortgage are able to afford new cars now.

And you have to say, do governments/EU really care if they are that expensive?

Cars will be for the wealthy even more in the future while the peasants have to take public transport.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120638356#Comment_120638356

I agree to an extent. New cars are getting more expensive in Ireland specifically. This is due to our VRT as well as inflation. In a year with 10% inflation you can expect luxury goods to increase over and beyond the 10%.

Plenty of people can still afford new cars, sales figures show this.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120632598#Comment_120632598

DMF, Transmission, Exhaust, Differential, every sensor to control a modern engine?

There's nothing basic about modern ICE cars

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120632954#Comment_120632954

Yet you look at the absolute gouging BYD are doing in the European prices...

I would have been all over the HAN but no way in hell is that a €72k car

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120638356#Comment_120638356

This is the real agenda imo. Driven by environmental concerns together with quality of life issues in density populated urban settings, there is an ongoing concerted effort to reduce the number of cars on the road, but critically not to ban them as the well of and influencial in society still want to enjoy the experience of private car ownership while still displaying faux concern for the so called greater good.

So what do you do? Answer is simple, price private car ownership beyond a large proportion of society - focus on expensive luxury products, speed up the technology cycle meaning older products become obsolete faster, introduce/increase all kind of user charges/taxes incl VRT, tolls, parking charges, congestion charges, road user charges, whatever else can be dreamed up to make private car ownership prohibitively expenses for the masses but actually improves the ownership experience for the well-off. The dregs of society can then just take the bus or cycle or walk. What more do they want ffs!! Now shall we take the Tesla or the Lear to Cannes for the weekend😂

Rx713B

That's just Geraldine Hebert talking absolute bullshit as per usual. She hasn't a clue about anything to do with the motor trade. - how I know this … I sell cars - Particularly EV's

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120638645#Comment_120638645

If i could thank this post a million times I would. She is a clueless fool who labels anyone that criticises her on twitter as a msyogenist!

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120638501#Comment_120638501

Could plenty of people afford new cars without finance?