DoneDeal Report - EV Average Prices

SouthWesterly

Bought a phev this week second hand. Had 262km on the tank. It now says it will do 292km. I've used no fuel all week and the battery seems to be able to make additional petrol. 😄

Soarer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120632621#Comment_120632621

Who was that dealer?

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120634489#Comment_120634489

Yes I had a couple of 535ds myself, am a diesel head outside of EVs, have a 1994 corona and 1998 peugeot 406 both d turbo in the shed.

But thats not the same as a diesel polo. VW spec in ireland was terrible. And also, compared to what you get in an EV, its not relevant. EVs tend to be more comparable to mid or top spec cars and there isnt one in the polo class really, the e-up I suppose.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120634392#Comment_120634392

Was it €46,5k or for the sake of the article was it €46.5k + €5k Grant + €2.5k VRT

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120634449#Comment_120634449

It's ok that you resent spending money on cars, however lot's of people don't mind and are willing to pay a bit extra for a nice place to be with the security of a dealer network for warranty services. I think the market is going to survive. The European manufacturers are letting the cheap Chinese manufacturers chase the dregs of the market whilst they focus on more profitable sales.

You seem to only care about hp, I'm guessing a battery on wheels would be all you need from an EV. Most new car buyers are more focused on interior instead.

DownByTheGarden

Whats worse than the sot of the cars are people shelling out that much who dont have home charging. I know a few who paid 50k+ for electric cars and then they complain when they see the price of charging them at public chargers.

One girl even decided to start charging it at her parents house while she was at work. USed to call in and say, can I charge the car and then get her dad to drive her to work and pick her up from work. They were paying about 60c a unit for the electricity she was using. Lasted about 2 bills and her Dad told her never to charge that car at his house again :)

quokula

I doubt there would be a huge difference between mean and median, unless there were a bunch of Rimacs being sold really stretching the average out.

However the source data is probably not very reliable. It's based on adverts on Donedeal and many of those are just a dealership listing a specific car model once as an all-encompassing ad. So if there's a 100k car and 40k car advertised then they average to 70k based purely on the number of ads, but that dealership might sell 10 of the 40k car for every single 100k car sold, yet Donedeal never see that in their data.

josip

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120634064#Comment_120634064

Yes, for all those who think range anxiety is just a new EV thing, they've never experienced the joy of driving an old ICE showing empty. Coming home from Féile years ago in the Mark II, the needle hit rock bottom on the Tipp-Kilkenny border. Turtle mode before turtle mode was a thing, all the way back through the badlands. No satnav, I had to navigate cross country using GAA pitches as landmarks. No mobile phone, no credit card, no cash. If I ran out, I'd be relying on the goodwill of the natives to get me on my way again. That's if I could even communicate with them in the first place. Every time that 903cc engine missed, as it was prone to do, I thought the game was up. I didn't breathe easy until I crossed the bridge of Ross.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120634841#Comment_120634841

Thats what I was getting at by suggesting median, the number of ads doesnt necessarily equate to sales numbers. A better exercise would have been to take SIMI sales data for 12 months and extrapolate the avg then

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120632954#Comment_120632954

30 or 40K aren't insignificant numbers - particularily when range comes into it. Based on the figures I've seen it appears supply is an issue for cars in those price points also.

Stevie2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120634800#Comment_120634800

Yeah it's a big obstacle, especially in a housing crisis and a government are hell bent on importing the third world here, many young Irish people will never be able to afford one

A prerequisite of owning an EV, means you must own a property, that's a pretty big problem, compared to ICE and don't posters give me the public charging and ask your landlord bit spiel, we all know that's not ideal.

Agree with that dad too, if your not on night rate electricity and paying 40c+ for elec, it's probably cheaper to run an ICE

Stevie2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120634912#Comment_120634912

It's not even 30 or 40k either, thats cash price, how many can actually afford to pay, 30,40,60,80k in cash for a car, they'll all have loans for it and most are 6%+ apr these days

A 50k car at 6% apr, minus a small deposit of 10k is now a 56k car

Stevie2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120634775#Comment_120634775

You might like to be robbed, but I want something to take me from A to B, that's all, I don't need my arse heated or something parking for me, can do that myself.

If I can buy a new Fabia for 20k, I'd like the same EV for a similar price with decent range 400-500km eg 70-80kWh battery and chargers to full in 30mins or so, not a Renault Zoe for 30k with 300km range with small 50kWh that takes an hour to charge

With the Chinese coming and Tesla really pushing prices, who knows it might come soon from them, but the traditional autogiants are way overpriced, VW, Hyundai etc, robbing people

tom1ie

Surely a good quality top spec second hand diesel (2015/2016) for about 10k cash makes more sense then spending 50k on a car with €700pm repayments on a loan?

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120635100#Comment_120635100

Sure, if you dont like new cars and are happy to cover out of warranty repairs yourself.

Alternatively instead of that 2016 diesel for 10k there was a 2017 Ioniq EV for 12k listed on donedeal recently, that would be my choice if looking for a cheao used car instead of paying 40-50k for a new car. But my last 3 EVs purchased were above 50k including a used model X so perhaps I'm not in that demographic any more. I used to be in the buying cheap (sub 1k) cars from auction, pre EV

josip

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120635014#Comment_120635014

I went looking at the Fabia prices because of your above post and found the official Fabia brochure.

https://www.skoda.ie/_doc/b606ed10-4f11-40b9-9670-3daee16ff65e

I'm not sure even where to begin with the picture. The picture has been mirrored, perhaps to fit the car pic nicely with the brochure design, but they never bothered to correct the reg plate. It is a Czech reg plate but the car is RHD? The photo has been taken by the sea, but the last time I drove through the Czech Republic, I don't recall seeing any such body of water. I can only hope the Fabias are built better than their brochures.

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120634775#Comment_120634775

Everyone is probably focused on different things - however as a parent with a number of young kids the look and feel of the interior is way down the list of what I need. I need something that is relatively cheap, reliable and relatively straightforward to run on an annual basis. Granted these requirements might change but personally for me to throw 50K at a car I would need to have the mortgage well paid off, the savings as topped up as they could be and the kids put through college.

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120635119#Comment_120635119

That was a pretty good price for a 2017 Ioniq however the main issue with that Ioniq is it is well out of warranty at that point. I'd surmise that the out of warranty repairs for an Ioniq have the potential to run into the many thousands of euro and would be much more difficult to get resolved relative to your traditional ICE (Appreciate ICE issues can be expensive also)

It's likely that you COULD still be driving the 2016 diesel in 10 years time after looking after it with regular services - could you say the same about the Ioniq? What will the battery be like in a decades time? What will the cost be to replace? These are essentialy unknowns.

If you are in a position to buy a brand new car every couple of years (as a minority of the population are) then these aren't considerations you'd make - which is fair enough.

It's not feasible currently that the practice of short lifespans on any product and/or the difficulty that can be had when repairing products will continue.

KCross

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120635014#Comment_120635014

In terms of new car sales you are now in the minority. Small hatchbacks are not what the market is asking for. Its crossovers primarily and that's what the OEM's are providing. 7/10 of the top 10 are CUV's.

The Yaris was the notable exception. You've to go down to number 18/19 to find Polo's and Focus's and sales are slipping sharply on those.

Ford are stopping production of Fiesta's entirely.

Thats the reality and it hasn't anything to do with BEV vs ICE. Its what the market is dictating.

Your thing is cheap and cheerful and you'll need to wait for todays EV's to come down to your budget as secondhand cars. I'd suggest there will "never" be a decent €20k BEV to be bought new. €30k maybe.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120635202#Comment_120635202

Its the same risk with a 2016 diesel. Engine goes pop and you're down a few grand for a replacement. At least with the EV with the fuel being cheaper you could build up a buffer fund each month. However the Ioniq battery is loaded with cobalt so its up there with LFP in the least likely to fail group.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120634912#Comment_120634912

Ohh I know. I’m just countering the €50k stated in Your post.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120635202#Comment_120635202

2017 EVs were 0.5% of the market for new sales. That means we were very much in the early days of the technology adoption curve, the innovators who are willing to leap with 2 feet into the unknown. Translate that to 2023 and it means the people who want to purchase 6 year old cars need to be that same audience of people willing to take on risks and take on some unknowns. It's only last year that new EVs went over 10% market share, still very much the early adopters who have a high appetite for risk.

quokula

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120635144#Comment_120635144

It's a LHD car that appears RHD because the photo is mirrored. That's probably why they mirrored it. I'd assume it's got a Czech reg plate because Skoda are a Czech company and they took one set of marketing photos that their dealers in different regions could pick up rather than having to do it themselves. Czechia is in Schengen so presumably it would be easy for them to take the car to whatever location they wanted for a nice background for their marketing materials, or maybe it's just photoshopped, but it's not outlandish to think a continental European car could be photographed in a neighbouring country.

Given their "made for Ireland" marketing slogan maybe they should have gone to more effort for an Irish specific photo or at least a RHD one for UK & Ireland but I don't think it's that big a deal really.

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120635325#Comment_120635325

You can't call someone who bought an EV in 2017 an "innovator" or indeed anyone who buys an EV now someone who has a "high appetite for risk".

There's any number of reasons someone opts for an EV, I'd argue one of the main reasons the past few years is easier access to credit.

Granted, there's an environmental benefit also but in the whole scheme of things that isn't always true.

Where are you picking up this terminology from? Seems to be straight out of a marketing blurb.

EV's have been in Ireland since 2010 or possibly before.

Most people don't have thousands to take a risk on an item they rely on to get from A to B.

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120635239#Comment_120635239

I'd argue the risks with a 7 year old EV are of an unknown nature and of a 17 year old EV even more unknown.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120635450#Comment_120635450

It's called the technology adoption curve, it's very familiar to anybody who works in the technology space. EVs are just another new technology.

I'm not entirely sure why EV threads seem to attract so much comment from those who are probably in the laggards part of the curve.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120635464#Comment_120635464

A 17 year old EV would be from 2006, so really only a g whiz and theres still plenty of them tipping about. You can get a new battery pack for a few hundred quid if you keep to lead acid AGM batteries or a couple of grand if you upgrade to lithium.

A 7 year old EV is from 2016 so you're looking at the known - leaf, zoe - as well as the degradation proof ioniq 28. I'd feel more confident buying a zoe or ioniq 28 than a leaf but even the leaf degrades slowly, you dont see the HV battery failures outright on them that even the early Teslas had.

There isnt the unknown anymore, we have enough data to know what happens and in most cases its consumables same as other cars, and some EVs are more prone to degradataion. Even with a leaf that has lost 2/3 of its pack to degradation, it still has residual value in the 8-10kWh remaining battery to use as domestic storage. I saw one leaf for 2k, that was a set of batteries with a free car attached.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120634392#Comment_120634392

MY and Tuscon are very similarly sized cars in fairness

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120635506#Comment_120635506

There's a 2012 leaf still kicking around Limerick. I doubt the owner changed the battery in the last 11 years so I wouldn't be concerned with longevity of that battery pack.

When it comes to other car manufacturers I haven't seen the same proof but I am sure it's there

Old diesel

There are two elements to consider in a wide ranging EV discussion....

The present

The future of EV infrastructure and EV technology.

Much EV criticism is based on an assumption that whatever limitations EVs have today both as cars and in terms of infrastructure.

Are not only permanent but "will get worse as we will never have enough infrastructure"

I find that many people who think "we will never have enough infrastructure" or "EVs will never work". Are not up to speed with how EV tech is constantly evolving.

The present.....

The cars have evolved massively.

200 miles range is increasingly common.

Infrastructure and charging need plenty of work but there are good examples around the world of infrastructure and charging working very well.

For example the gold standard of charging is the Tesla supercharger and also Kempower chargers.

Cars are on the expensive side but the MG4 shows real promise in affordable EVs.

The future.....

1) as more EVs go on the roads infrastructure will expand to deal with that. Because more EVs needing charging = business opportunities for CPOs, host sites and businesses like hotels etc.

Destination charging will be really important going forward.

2) it will be common to have chargers and Cars capable of charging to 80 percent in say 15 mins.

Taycan can already do 80 percent in 18 mins and that's at 270 kW max.......

3) those needing 100 percent of charging from public charging will.....

a) be on subscription packages for regular type users.

b) charge for 10 mins en route

c) use destination chargers at places they park for non EV reasons (ie their workplace or supermarket where they shop).

4) car prices have always risen over time but VW are aiming for an ID2 to be sub 25 k. Renault are aiming for the R5 to be cheaper to build then a Zoe.....

You might not buy a 20 k Fabia again but that's not just because its an EV....

In 1993 I remember the last of the Mercedes 190s (W201) been promoted by a dealer as the last chance (ever) to buy a brand new Merc for under 25 k Irish punts.