SCEP Scheme

Thekeencyclist

Hi All,

Excuse my lack of knowledge here as I wasnt in the BDGP scheme but am considering joining the SCEP scheme.

At the moment 50% of my reference # meet the requirement for joining the scheme etc. This figure is based off of the following:

• 8.3% of the 50% is on a Genotyped Evaluation
• The remainder is based on reviewing the Euro Star Replacement rating on ICBF as these animals were never genotyped but are rated as been 4/5 star.

My question is, because these animals are in my herd already, can the star rating change on them even if i am request to do a genotype test on them??

I see there is one rule, that the star rating may change over time but this doesnt impact existing BDGP members but as a new entry will the non genotyped amimals mentioned be impacted by this rule.

Thanks.

tanko

Yeah, the star rating can change when they’re genotyped, they could go up or down but most will stay much the same imo. You’re borderline at 50% 4/5 star for October 31st this year, you’d need to be a bit higher for comfort really, it’s 65% in 2025 and 75% in 2027.

Thekeencyclist

Yeah i'm guessing I could join in the meantime and see what happens with the existing stock with regards the stars. I generally buy in 3 or 4 weanling heifers every year anyway and keep them until 2 yr old or optionally as a replacement when needed. It wouldnt be a big deal to keep an eye out for 4/5 star heifers (ideally as replacements) when looking to get to the 65% and 75% in future years. The Bord Bia Inspection would be the big Question Mark..... LOL

whelan2

We went to sign up today and our reference number is 1 cow. Our sucklers were in my dads herd number for bdgp . We now have 18 suckler cows in our partnership herd number - son and I- and were not eligible for scep.

anthony500_1

That's a

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120571838#Comment_120571838

That's a pure balls, is there any way of requesting to up your numbers through the dafm???

whelan2

Teagasc man sent an email about it a few weeks ago , no reply. I thought there might be a new entrant clause or something.

893bet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120572240#Comment_120572240

I thought there was new entrant clauses but if you had one maybe you are screwed that way?

whelan2

I don't know were the 1 came from as it says we had 1 in 2017. I'd no sucklers in my herd number then.

Lime Tree Farm

I think the year is from 1 July to 30 June following year

minerleague

Most of my cows are 1 & 2 star according to letter I got from ICBF. Some dairy bred store heifers I bought are 4 & 5 star (without ever having a calf) simply because someone decided that extra milk is so important. Made the point here before that sucklers with too much milk are often more work after they have 3 or 4 calves ( mastitis, calves finding it harder to get first drink themselves ) Tullamore farm were going to have all cows 1st cross dairy animals but I think they have moved away from that ( unsure ? ) To compound my star rating issue I bought 6 sim heifers 2 years ago ( owned by a "horsey" crowd and poorly done so came good value ), put 3 incalf but on letter it says "no sire registered" so no stars of any kind! Wont be joining, should leave more in the pot for everyone else

Ladeeen

I had the same issue with x3 bought in FR X HE heifers I put in calf, once I genotyped them they got their stars.

Base price

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120572240#Comment_120572240

I would try phoning them directly although with DAFM you maybe waiting ages for the phone to answer. It doesn't seem fair in your case for the situation that you and your son are now in.

minerleague

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120573980#Comment_120573980

Thanks, was thinking since that might be the case

Lime Tree Farm

Now I am more sceptical than ever. I was shocked when I printed out the latest eligibility report to see some of the 5 star genomic tested cows dropped to 3 stars. I logged on to see previous evaluation history. The history has been wiped, it's now starting May 2022, and the cow showing 3 stars since May 22. When I looked up my filed eligibility reports, one that I had printed in June 2022 they were 5 stars in June 22, even though they are now claiming they were evaluated as 3 stars in May 2022.

limo_100

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120572240#Comment_120572240

Hi I am a new entrant with a different herd number and I was able to select my own reference number which I picked at 25cows, however I am not sure I will get that as I wont get to 25cows this year so not sure if the 25 will be my reference or if it will be the number that I have calved on 30 June this year.

Jack C

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120582004#Comment_120582004

You only have to calve down 50% of your ref number each year 1st july -30th june ... in your case 13. At least 80% of these calves must be sired by a 4 or 5 star bull. This rises to 85% in year 3 and 4 and 90% in year 5.

By October 31st 2023 you'll have to have 13(again 50% of ref num) eligible females. These can be made up either of your cows or heifers over 16 months but they must be genotyped 4 or 5 star on the replacement index. This figure rises to 65% in 2025 and 75% by oct 2027.

Also you must genotype test 70% of your ref num each year. These can be calves.

Jb1989

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120582234#Comment_120582234

He may only have to calve down 12 instead of 13 cows, as an expert mentioned, they were thinking of rounding the 50 percent of reference number downways.

And for the genotyping of your own calves, you'd be right be suposed to calveing 17 odd cows to have 70 percent genotyping animals, otherwise you'll have to buy in non tagged cattle to genotype.

Alibaba

Anyone know how many animals have to be weighed each year ?

Is it 80% of the yearly reference number or 80% of the amount of calves born in the herd.

tanko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120582740#Comment_120582740

80% of the number of calves born in the herd if number of calves born is less or equal to yearly ref number.

if more calves than your yearly ref no are born it’s 80% of the yearly ref no to be weighed.

if your yearly ref no is 10 and you have 5 calves you weigh 4, if you have 10 born you weigh 8, if you have 20 born you weigh 8.

Alibaba

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120582795#Comment_120582795

Thanks tanko.

I was thinking the same thing but looking at the Programme Action Penalty Schedule number 4 of the t & c it says...... so not sure if its me taking it up wrong but heres what it says ,

Level of compliance and sanction as following...

Weight recording / Less than 80% of the cow/calf pairs of the yearly reference number validly weighed in any scheme year = No payment for weight recording plus an additional 10% penalty for year in which breach occurs.

So that looks like 80% of the yearly reference to be weighed..

tanko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120583108#Comment_120583108

If you only have to calve 50% of your yearly reference number how can you weigh 80%. That penalty bit is badly worded, it doesn’t make sense, it’s wrong afaik.

Alibaba

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120583259#Comment_120583259

Yeah I'd say you're probably right alright.

Whoever worded that made a ba##ls of it. Civil servants 🙄

Jb1989

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120583259#Comment_120583259

A bit like you can calve 50 percent but need to genotype 70 percent.

tanko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120583558#Comment_120583558

If you look at the terms and conditions on the departments website under Action 4 weighing it clearly says that if your yearly reference number is ten and you calve five cows you only need to weigh 4 cow and calf pairs.

Alibaba

50% of your ref is the minimum number of cows you have to calve down , fall below that in any year and you're out of it ! + They look for all moneys back.

70% genotyping can be cows , heifer calves or even bulls so there's a difference there.

Jb1989

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120583594#Comment_120583594

I'm OK but other farmer's keeping the minimum amount, have to watch their figures. I was in bdgp and have nearly all genotyped, so haven't many spares left, but I'll scrape by as always. . Just be nice in an ideal world if the percentages of every action just matched.

Alibaba

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120583581#Comment_120583581

It certainly does. But the penalty explanation appears to contradict that.

I'd say just a case of bad wording alright.

They seem have the whole scheme slightly over complicated , could have made it a bit simpler.

Then again some people have to justify their jobs !!

Jack C

Another question.. It says that you have to have 50% of ref num genotyped 4 or 5 star by Oct 31st in 2023 and rising to 65% in 2025 and 75% in 2027.

Is it just for on that date and is it ok if you drop below during the rest of the year.

Jb1989

Genotyping has to be done few month in advance for the lab to anyalise the results, so tags need be away mid summer at latest for Oct 31st deadline. This year being an exception tho with the slow start.

But yes you'd be alright for a few months after the October deadline with out the genotyped stock.

Base price

I was talking to a neighbour who is a suckler farmer and he reckons I should enter this scheme. We haven't been in any of the previous suckler schemes. When I logged onto Agfood it says that I have 3 reference animals yet when I look at ICBF there are 70 animals but only 4 showing as eligible including this years calves although non are genotyped. On Agfood it says that you cannot set your reference number more than your average reference number which is 3.

So my question is - can I avail of this scheme as a new entrant with more than 3 animals as it wouldn't be worth my while or is the scheme only catering for suckler herds that were in previous schemes.

Lime Tree Farm

The stars began to shine again today. I checked the ICBF "scep eligibility" tab "beef section" under the "view profiles" tab, - all the original 4 & 5 stars are there with a "yes" "eligible for scep". That tab suits me fine..

tanko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120587329#Comment_120587329

Afaik the important thing for you is to get your application in even if it’s only for 3 cows and plead your case afterwards for a bigger number, i doubt if you will be given anything more before the scheme closes later this month. On average how many cows were you calving between 2016 and 2021?

Alibaba

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120586599#Comment_120586599

Yeah once you have those percentages on them dates you are OK.

You can do what you like the following week (s)

Base price

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120588058#Comment_120588058

I only got going back into sucklers in 2020. I had two in 17, one in 18, one in 19, five in 20, nine in 21, fifteen in 22 and so far this year I've fifteen on the ground with another seven cows to calve.

tanko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120599583#Comment_120599583

The ref no is based on the average of the best three years between 16-21 so your ref figure should be five i think. I thought I read somewhere that new entrants with more cows since 2021 can get additional quota based on your current numbers. Hopefully your advisor or maybe the department will advise you.

tanko

I see that the genotyping self selection is available on ICBF now.

ABitofsense

I see the self selection for genotyping is on the SCEP part online now. It has 10 up for me (reference no 15) to do even though I have 6 done this year already. So i rang them to see do I only need to do 4 additional now. They said as the ones I have done were done privately and not through the scheme they don't count unless I was in previous BDGP scheme. Balls that TBH

tanko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120600399#Comment_120600399

Have you got 10 left to tag now?

ABitofsense

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120600495#Comment_120600495

Yeah will be 10 separate ones to the ones I've already done.

Anto_Meath

Thanks @tanko, picked my cows there now just changed 1 from a mad heifer that will be heading for the hook even though she is 5 star so hopefully won't be around next October.

I see there is alot more information to be filled in on the cows now regarding there milk and their feet..

Hopefully they will send out the tags now soon.

Jack C

I see you can defer your selection till july 31st, which I think I'll do as I want to buy in a few heifers and test them instead of some of mine that definitely won't be 4/5 *. Will that delay the results though.

trg

We've a handful of high star yearling HEX heifers bought from dairy farm....icbf saying they're not eligible.....is it down to breeding? I thought Hereford be ok

tanko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120612828#Comment_120612828

Heifers have to be at least sixteen months old and genotyped 4/5 star to be eligible, they may be eligible on October 31st this year yet.

Lime Tree Farm

check ICBF under "view profiles", then on the "Beef" column, it has the "scep eligibility" tab. You might get a better result there, I did.

ABitofsense

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120612828#Comment_120612828

Their not eligible till genotyped and as Tanko over 16mths at end of October

tanko

Today is the last day for applying for SCEP without getting a penalty for a late application.

Base price

Suckler farmers could have to pay up to €20 per head for genotyping calves with ICBF while dairy farmers will only have to pay €4 to €6 per head.

https://www.farmersjournal.ie/suckler-farmers-kick-over-genotyping-charges-765535

ABitofsense

If one of my cows calve in July this (my last one, PD LM) but in June next year, does she get included twice for 01-Jul-23 to 30-Jun-24 reference?

Base price

..

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/over-20000-suckler-farmers-apply-to-scep-before-deadline/?utm_term=Autofeed&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR3QBF7HkRDrhiAfJJUxsbISji1Uyh5mz5F03Abu5r9kmlH8gq2jyZQ5NY0#Echobox=1684854452

trg

Not related to thread but it is indirectly related......does anyone here use sensehub for beef?

Any idea of cost or other feedback?

minerleague

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120573395#Comment_120573395

Went to Athenry Newford Farm open day to see suckler herd comprised totally of 1st cross dairy-beef cows. Cows are culled if any problems occur regarding udder/elder or "bottle" teats. Replacement rate is quite high anyway ( in 2022 they culled 26 cows - 8 for TB -with an average age of 75 mths which is just over 6 years)

Interesting to see, remind you of more intensive dairy farm than typical suckler farm. All replacements are bought as calves and reared on farm, which probably helps as they are quieter for herding with it being 100% AI. No replacements bred on farm so all terminal sires can be used ( with low calving difficulty for heifers)