Champions Cup 2024

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121652452#Comment_121652452

First time we can play anyone from outside our group is the semi final though. That's just silly.

pickarooney

Is there a possible tweak that would fix that without messing with the integrity of the draw? 8 from the top half and 8 from the bottom and draw a1 Vs b8 and so forth?

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121652505#Comment_121652505

Yeah, you could just have pre-organised matchups.

Also, to be fair, the R16 lineup we have is not an inherent fault of the system. It is partly just incredibly bad luck.

monkeybutter

its been dire really since they moved it up to 24 teams.

Lord Palmerston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121654608#Comment_121654608

Just not enough jeopardy in the group stages.

Big results don't matter that much. Two thirds of the teams progressing to the next stage is the real issue. Teams getting through with a single win etc.

La Rochelle didn't get out of first gear till January, and still progressed easily enough.

crisco10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121654176#Comment_121654176

That is true. I actually think the biggest weakeness of the format is that one team will "miss" out on playing the weakest team in the group. E.g. Ulster didnt get to play Cardiff, but did get the "honour" of having one of their 2 home games against Toulouse. In another world, Ulster could have not played Toulouse, played Cardiff and Quins away, Racing home and maybe Bath at home. Suddenly that's 3 very winnable games out of 4. All based on the draw for the group.

and in fairness to LAR, they didn't get to play Stade Francais!

Lord Palmerston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121654730#Comment_121654730

Yeah, very true. LAR's reward for being back to back champions was arguably the toughest draw of any team in the tournament.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121654730#Comment_121654730

There is also the issue of travel, none of the old Magners League teams will have to travel to SA while others in our pool will, SA URC teams have to travel up to play T14 or Premiership clubs.

Lord Palmerston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121654807#Comment_121654807

It doesn't really bear out that way in the results though - only three URC sides finished in the top 2 of their pools, Leinster & the two South African sides.

rudiger2.0

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121654176#Comment_121654176

Top teams (Toulouse, Leinster in this case) will win more points so the lower teams in their groups (Racing, Leicester) will naturally get less points which results in teams from the same group meeting each other.

Not sure if that's luck or just an inherent issue with the draw.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121654686#Comment_121654686

Having to play a R16 away followed by a QF away, in this case on separate continents, is no minor disincentive to finishing low though.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121655533#Comment_121655533

Fair, though this is slightly offset by the fact that teams don't all play each other. The specificity of so many exact re-matches seems more unfortunate to me than anything else.

lawrencesummers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121654176#Comment_121654176

Is it really bad luck though?

Its a group structure where the team that wins most games by the most scores qualifies top and the team that loses most games by the most points but still does enough to qualify places bottom.

Isnt the group stage essentially creating a perfect curve where your winning team is on the positivie side of that curve at a level directley opposite the losing side, and the next round is based on where you finished in those groups.

Its not bad luck or fluke, the competition is designed so that the best top team has beaten the worst 4th team, and the margin of that result factors into the outcome of the pairing for the next round.

Its probably impossible in such a format to avoid repeat fixtures.

And as was said the worst aspect of the format is that some teams dont get to play the worst team in their group.

RichieRich_89

Having four pool stage opponents also increases the likelihood of meeting someone you've already faced. Lots of glass half empty assessments here, if you ask me. The back-to-backs in the old format were seen as brilliant. There weren't any complaints about meeting the same team twice. In fact in the classic format of 6 pools of 4 you were guaranteed to play three teams twice each.

Toulouse v Racing is an interesting match up. On the evidence of their respective showings in the pool games you'd think it's a foregone conclusion, but quite a few times Lancaster's gameplan has seen Leinster beat Toulouse pretty heavily. I wouldn't count Racing out.

AdamD

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121655533#Comment_121655533

I think its inherent in the draw, the maths will always push it that way.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121655721#Comment_121655721

Thats not why people are criticising it. Its a grouo stage where you dont play all teams in your group and then you are still having multiple rrpeats of group games. Comparing this to the old format of back to back games agaunst same sides in a group. Is a strange take.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121655663#Comment_121655663

Is it really bad luck though?

Yes? I don't see how Leinster getting 19 points significantly impacts the number of points that the 4th placed team will get. They have 3 other games to play in that impact their final points and PD. Repeats are unavoidable but the sheer level of them is just bad luck. If Racing had picked up one more bonus point somewhere we would be playing them instead and Toulouse would have Leicester.

RichieRich_89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121655819#Comment_121655819

In the old format if you made the final you played 6 separate opponents - assuming you didn't play a group opponent in the knockouts again.

In this format even if Leinster play La Rochelle again on top of a rematch with Leicester they will face 6 different teams if they make the Final. Rematches add a bit of spice. It's like in the old pool stages, except now one of the legs is a knockout game with home advantage having been earned. It is what it is. Cup competitions will often throw up scenarios like the two best teams facing off before the final, and that sort of thing.

Digifriendly

Present format is pants. Winning just one pool game and still qualifying is a joke. Period.

sydthebeat

of the 4 "rematches" bordeaux v saracens and stormers v LAR are the same 'home v away' scenario.

leinster v leicester and bulls v lyon are the inverse of the pool game.

so while all 4 being the inverse would have been better, i think its palatable enough to accept, especially if the same results are forthcoming.

pickarooney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121654686#Comment_121654686

It's as much a strength as it is a weakness. The biggest issue is teams not giving a toss and throwing games. That left a load of dead rubbers in the old system. With this new one teams don't automatically jack it in after a bad start and the last round was full of competitive games.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121655721#Comment_121655721

Agree with most of this. I wouldnt be surprised if the same people who were complaining about losing home and away games are now still complaining about repeats.

Feel there is way too much rosy memories of the old format that ignores the many flaws. People dont like change so will always look for holes when it is forced upon them.

The tournament is designed to focus on the knockout stage and it still managed for me every match weekend was exciting.

CatFromHue

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121655967#Comment_121655967

It's not great but then if you got an Italian team in your group in the old format then that group had a good chance of getting two qualifiers and/or one qualifier being the top seed. In 10/11 the two groups with Italians teams ended up with 4 qualifiers for the QFs. Then when it changed to the Champions Cup with 5 groups you were nearly guaranteed 2 qualifiers for the QF from the group with the Italian team.

So it's swings and roundabouts a bit.

Dave_The_Sheep

One win and qualifying is far worse than the "Italian pool" phenomena.

Jump_In_Jack

Qualifying isn’t that easy, look at Ulster and Connacht, and Munster scraped by. Seeing how competitive the pools are and how difficult it is to get a home draw in knockouts proves how good a system it is.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121655967#Comment_121655967

'Qualifying' to a round of 16, not to the QF which is what 'qualification' used to mean

If you consider the purpose of the R16 is to weed out the no hopers and get rid of the dead rubbers we always used to see at the end of the Pool stages, then 8 knockout games is certainly better than that

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121657578#Comment_121657578

Plenty of teams got 1 win and didn't qualify either.

pickarooney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121657578#Comment_121657578

Only one team got through with a single win and their reward is to play Toulouse away. They're not through to the QF as we're the group qualifiers from the old system.

Jump_In_Jack

One tweak for seeding the teams they could have made, I think Munster having only 1 win should not be above Leicester (both teams on 9 points) who had 2 wins. Using Points Difference as the first criterion for ranking isn't ideal I think.

Similarly, Racing getting one win and no draw, but a load of bonus points, Bayonne did better in that they got a win and a draw, but Racing had a better points difference anyway, Racing are the best "worst" team to qualify. I think it stands up as a system. Racing currently stand top of the Top14, so there could be an upset there, you never know.

There should be an element of jeopardy in knockout rugby, we needed the 16 best teams and arguably that's what we've got, and it'd be hard to argue that the ranking of the 16 teams isn't a fair reflection of their ability.

pickarooney

If a team starts with a win and a draw then chucks two matches, that shouldn't rank them higher than a team that comes off worst in three close games IMO.