Report of the Independent Review Group of the Defence Forces

Larbre34

How can it not?

The organisation you are talking about isn't the Defence Forces, its the State. The DF won't defend the actions, the State will. The DF won't pay the restitution, the State will.

The RUC was untenable, so they changed the cap badge, the name, and a few policies. Same people, same HQ, same armoured Land Rovers. Smoke and mirrors.

The Defence Forces will get a shake up, as they were already getting anyway, but no sovereign State can endure without its armed forces, so they will continue. Some different people, some different policies, maybe a different culture, different rules; same Óglaigh na hÉireann, for as long as theres an Irish Republic.

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120470642#Comment_120470642

There is no limitation on criminal cases. In civil cases the limitation period is 6 years for assault and 2 years for negligence which can be extended if the person claiming was under a disability caused by their offending conduct.

Larbre34

Which is good to know, because if the DF and its community is to move forward and justice is to be served - and be seen to be served - , all the tables will have to be kicked over, all the dark corners illuminated with a harsh light and all the sacred cows slaughtered.

And I think that can only be done by an external criminal investigation.

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120474130#Comment_120474130

A criminal investigation ism only one aspect t to the problem. A major issue is how this was allowed to start and remain concealed for so long. That has nothing to do with any criminal investigation but concerns organisational culture and structural issues. This raises questions for a number of entities involved or connected to this.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120476557#Comment_120476557

The Very idea that you had a complaints process which went through the chain of command, which issued punishment outside of the normal disciplinary process, except in extreme cases, which kept no record of these processes on the accused's records, muddys the waters slightly. Any potential defendant could claim the double jeopardy defence. i.e they were already punished for what they did.

SIB should have been involved in any investigation from the outset, and all decisions reported to AGS once an offence outside DFR was detected.

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120476745#Comment_120476745

That misses my point. There is a "rank is right" attitude in the event of a complaint. There is a practice of appeals being invariably upheld when matters are taken further. There is a culture of contempt an disrespect permeating through the whole edifice. There are flaws in training and in promotion systems.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120477643#Comment_120477643

One might suggest the military discipline system is also no longer fit for purpose by that regard.

I know of one unit that kept a kitty to pay the fine of whoever was up on orders for being AWOL that week. Usually they were AWOL because they couldnt get childcare, unable to fuel car or other issues, common throughout the working classes.

The realities of modern society do not lend well to the military disciplinary system. The rules were written for a time when an individual would "throw themselves into the Army" to avoid a spell in prison.

Manic Moran

I’m not sure I would agree to that statement. I accept that there are different expectations of today’s soldiers, and that COs will be dealing with requests of absence for this, that and the other, but I don’t see that the military discipline structure inherently is a problem. For something like childcare, (or school exams or whatever) what is important is that the troop come up on the net with the problem ahead of time with the earliest possible notice, as opposed to just staying away. That doesn’t necessarily mean than an approval of a request for absence is the best solution. I had a troop request excusal from training some two weeks early due to a childcare problem, by doing so we were able to find an alternate solution that the child was acceptably cared for, and the troop attended her training. Had she simply just telephoned that morning saying “I’ve been trying for two weeks, can’t get child care, I can’t come in today”, then absolutely there would have been punitive actions.

Dohvolle

My understanding, and it may be a uniquely Irish issue, is the in-laws/parents usually do childcare here because creche facilities are scarce and not an option on military wages.

Then the carer gets sick, and suddenly the options become limited. If there are 2 parents of the child in question involved, then someone must take an unscheduled leave day.

Scenario 2, lone parent, child gets sick. Soldier may be late while trying to arrange someone to care for child who otherwise would be heading to school. Is late as a result.

Add in other domestic issues around separation, custody etc and the picture is less clear. Again something the private sector is better equipped for, that the military disciplinary system has not caught up with.

A discussion here around the need for the state, as an employer to provide childcare, the Defence Forces included, plus offer family friendly work arrangements were appropriate. People have recently taken the state to court for failing to provide similar. In the past it was laughed out of court, but things are different now.

Larbre34

It's another good reason to return to family quarters on base, they become a ready made community that all understand each other's pattern of life and can support each other in circumstances like one partner going on tour or pulling anti-social shifts periodically.

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120557525#Comment_120557525

I still don’t see why that is a military justice issue. If those situations are you describe are the concern, it seems to be a leadership issue which lacks awareness of real-world soldier issues and the judiciousness/compassion to know when something is deserving of punitive proceedings vs accepting it as “life happens”.

The military justice system, after all, will presumably only start when a charge sheet is filed by someone.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120563272#Comment_120563272

Therein lies the problem.

sparky42

A sad example that the DF isn’t alone with facing these issues:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/may/18/whistleblower-reports-ongoing-sexual-abuse-women-uk-military

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120613563#Comment_120613563

US and Canada have it also.

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120563272#Comment_120563272

I agree it is a leadership issue. As is pointed out in this situation, there was no compassion shown in dealing with the individual in question. That is why the cultural aspects of the problem must be resolved. A culture seems to have become ingrained in the DF since the promotion system changed some years ago of being insensitive to the needs of subordinates as to show sensitivity is seen as a sign of weakness, a quality which is not admired and those seeking promotion. A person with a genuine need or problem should be accommodated as far as possible, not told to go bugger.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-41122048.html