Report of the Independent Review Group of the Defence Forces

Notmything

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120427941#Comment_120427941

Never heard of any gang bangs in any of my trips, but definitely knew of officers and NCO's mainly at bn hq who enjoyed the company of females for the duration of the trip.

Saying that on one trip two privates found out they were bedding the same female which led to much hilarity in the canteen.

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120424814#Comment_120424814

By what description would an inspector general be subordinate to the Chief of Staff. The Inspector General can be given any rank and given functions distinct from those of the Chief of Staff. There were Inspectors General in the early days of the state. I would think the Inspector General would be appointed by the government in situations such as this where the DF is out of control.

Larbre34

The DF has a number of very specific problems that need addressing, but it is not out of control, by any stretch.

What would you suggest this Inspector General actually do anyway?

thegame983

I mean I always assumed that being in the military was like the opening 40 mins of Full Metal Jacket.

JP Liz V1

Katie Hannon discussion on RTE 1 now about the abuse and bullying, shocking stuff

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120436955#Comment_120436955

People who assume that seem to conveniently ignore what happened to the Drill instructor, and the weakest recruit in that movie.

It is not a documentary. It is set in the USMC of the early 60s, given the recruits are training with the M14, which was replaced by the M16 in 1964, and in the Vietnam half of the movie, set in 1968 Joker is already a Sergeant, as is Cowboy. It bore no similarity to military training when it came out in 1987, let alone in the 2020s. R Lee Ermey drew from his experience as a USMC instructor from 1965 to 1967 for the part. This was a USA that had a system of drafting unwilling participants into military service, mostly post war "baby boomers" that had lived the soft life prior to induction. Accurate representations of the same training from decades earlier of those going to fight WW2 show it was far less sadistic but instead focused on military fitness.

If anything the scenes in the first half of the movie contributed to normalising bullying in the military after.

Nowdays, gym bunnies pay top money for "boot camp"where some protein shake filled wanker hurls all sorts of abuse at people for no good reason while they partake in otherwise pointless exercises involving tractor tyres and mooring ropes. Few of these instructors, if any ever did military training beyond a weeks camp as a recruit in the FCA. There were no tractor tyres or mooring ropes used in FCA training. So we can only assume then they learnt their wankering skills from movies like Full Metal jacket, where they must have been at the snack bar when the main bully, Gunnery Sgt Hartman, is murdered by his psychologically damaged victim.

Proper military training is not well represented in fictional media, because it is just that. FICTION. Watch instead some of the many recent documentaries the BBC and other have done around military recruit training. Instead of bullying and physical abuse, it is about teamwork and self development under supervision. Ritual humiliation is not part of the syllabus. Physical and sexual abuse never was.

jonnybigwallet

That was a very interesting post. Thanks Doh.

pjordan

Actually very surprised there isn't more comment and reaction to this report, and indeed the women of honour story overall.

It's interesting hearing the views and opinion of insiders or former military personell on here even if some of the jargon or terminology is over my head.

Coming at it as I am, with absolutely no experience of military service or even the RDF but with quite a lot of first hand experience of working and interacting with the ex officer class of the Irish military, I would have to say that very little of it came as much of a surprise to me. I have sadly found that the arrogance and sense of superiority engendered within the officer class in the Irish defence forces tends to extend far beyond their military career, invariably when they retire and are subsumed into private industry, or more likely into roles in the public service, enabled by a very influental and powerful old boys network who look after their own. That and the attitude of some many of these former officers to women in particular is something that belongs in the last century, or indeed the one before that. The levels of misogony and chauvanism and sexism that I have encountered from these "lads" as a male myself is unbelievable and is invariaby accompanied with the notion that it is "nothing but a bit of craic" and sure it's her problem "if she cant take a joke".

Indeed in the last week I'd say there are multitudes of serving and former officers frothing at the mouth and absolutely raging at the incursion into and spotlight being trained on their hallowed secretive club, and ranting at "that crowd of bitches" and proof if any were needed that "woman have no place in the military" oh and that a bit of discipline in essential within the military and is now being dressed up as "bullying" by whimps and snowflakes that just couldn't take it.

I'd also say that unfortunately this attitude and behaviour is so engendered and enshrined within the upper officer echelons of the defence forces that enlightened officers are in the minority and any effort to root it out would require a decimation and early retirement for a vast swathe of the officer class that would likely have the sort of destructive effect on the force that Stalin's 1937 purges had on the Russian military. I think a bit like the reform of the RUC into the PSNI, a lot of old heads with old ideas are gonna have to go and, considering the brain and personnel drain that the defence forces are already undergoing, one would wonder would it be even able to survive such purge to emerge as an effective defence force afterwards?

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120436935#Comment_120436935

The Clonan report came out 23 years ago. Either the DF is acting under orders letting this thing go on, or it is out of control and can't stop it.

The Inspector General should identify and eliminate the systemic problems causing all of this.

I notice you haven't explained how an Inspector General would be subordinate to the Chief of Staff by description.

What description?

Larbre34

By describing the simple fact that the legislation requires an I.G. to be appointed with a Military rank, so he or she would have to be of rank OF-9 (4 Star General or full Admiral) to be anything but subordinate to the incumbent Defence Forces Chief of Staff.

sparky42

The cabinet is going to hear proposals for a new oversight group at tomorrows meeting. Completely warranted yet a bit telling that on this matter of defence they can respond within days and weeks while anything that actually means spending on defence gets slowballed as much as possible.

https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2023/0404/1374274-defence-forces/

Larbre34

AGS have commenced an investigation into predatorial behaviour in the DF following receipt of 26 complaints covering 50 years, with more anticipated.

No doubt a good few of these allegations are against former members, but will be interesting to see if theres a uptick in early retirements among certain cohorts.

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120443313#Comment_120443313

How will this work with Military law? Does AGS & Civilian law overrule?

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120443564#Comment_120443564

Not sure, the Commissioner seems to have already ruled out involvement of the MPs, and RTE was suggesting the AGS would seek powers if needed to investigate overseas allegations as well?

Larbre34

We're talking about both alleged perpetrators and victims that are no longer in the DF, probably a very long time gone in fact, and also probably the shaking of a few trees to examine any coordination or conspiracy in terms of the pattern of offences over 5 or 6 decades.

The MP wouldn't have nearly the resources or the remit to lead an investigation like that and so AGS are the proper Authority to handle it.

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120440074#Comment_120440074

The I.G could be appointed with a rank equal to the COS. In any event, even if the I.G. had a lower rank than the COS it wouldn't of itself make him subordinate. It might make him lower in rank but would not necessarily give the COS operational control over his activities. The Provost martial can arrest the Chief of Staff or other officers senior to him. They can't order him not to. An I.G> does what the government tells him. So does the Chief. All the government has to do is prescribe exclusive functions for each and there is no subordination.

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120443564#Comment_120443564

many offences can be against both Military Law and ordinary law. E.g assault, theft, criminal damage. The AGs can investigate andy offence contrary to ordinary law. if a person has been charged under military law they can't be charged under ordinary law or vice versa. In a lot of cases it is more convenient for military law to deal with offences. There is no need for the Garda to visit army barracks to take statements and to summon witnesses to the ordinary criminal courts. in addition the sentencing criteria is different in the military with discipline being a factor in the military. The military judge can also schedule hearings and so can take account of operational requirements whereas a civvy court will set a date and expect the military to work around it. No allowance would be made for a witness or the accused being on a course or overseas.

sparky42

The women of honour group aren’t happy with the selection of the DOD SG for the panel:

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-41110201.html

Larbre34

It does seem a bit conflicted, to say the least. I mean sure, have a liaison from the Dept with observer status, but there should be no full member of the body from the DF or DoD, it the notion is for it to be external and independent.

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120444555#Comment_120444555

A bit like putting the fox on the committee to review security in the hen-house.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120454811#Comment_120454811

Not like that at all.

Neither the Sec Gen, or anyone in the DoD has been involved in any of the behaviour around this report. They would have had no part in the complaints process.

However, her professional relationship with the DFCOS is grounds for concern.

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120454857#Comment_120454857

They haven't been involved in the behaviour but it is not yet known that they haven't been involved in the causation and cover-ups.

Larbre34

It doesn't matter, the DoD is part of the Defence Structure.

We do not yet know, whether or if the Department itself was involved in ignoring, blocking or otherwise obstructing or failing complainants over the decades long duration of these allegations.

Despite the recency of McCrum's appointment as Sec Gen, she is the Chief Executive of the Department now and may well have to account for and represent her Department for actions in the past. Thats just the way corporate responsibility works.

And so, for these reasons and others, it is improper that she or any Officer of the DoD would be represented on any group or body investigating the allegations or having anything to do with advocating for complainants.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120456244#Comment_120456244

There is another suggestion that if you have civilian defence structure represented then you should also have representation from the Military side of the defence structure.

Manic Moran

I have to say, I’d be inclined to go with someone from the organisation as a “sanity check” on some of the group’s activities and, frankly, as an SME who knows who’s who and what’s where. You obviously can’t go about appointing former members of the DF, as you might when doing other similar investigations. As one member, she’s not going to have a controlling vote and as Dohville mentions, is not likely to be a part of the problem.

Larbre34

If you want a sanity check, chair it with a retired judge or senior counsel. Get representation on it from the professional fields of HR, counselling, human rights law, advocacy etc.

Not having a controlling vote is one thing, not being able to influence proceedings and get the inside track about what her Department may be facing, corporately, is another.

Its a clear conflict of interest, I can't be persuaded otherwise and I think her appointment will be withdrawn or otherwise ended sooner rather than later. If for no other reason than the refusal of complainants to engage with the body so long as she remains on it.

getoutadodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120426662#Comment_120426662

JEEZ what a mess. The legal eagles must be licking their lips down at the Four Goldmines....years of lucrative work incoming. Currently they're extracting zillions from the HSE on negligence cases. The DF could be finished once the criminal cases start flooding the courts.

Larbre34

Finished? How would you describe that manifesting itself?

Dohvolle

What's the statute of limitations on the events under investigation, anyone care to guess?

getoutadodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120470523#Comment_120470523

Once a precedent (negligence) was set in the hearing damage case years back...everyone piled in to get their cut of compo. All that was required was evidence of material damage to hearing ability certified by a medical expert. Millions paid out. This.. involving as it will criminal cases is far far more serious...will be more protracted...all requiring individual cases...solicitors and counsels all over it. Rape cases ..real or imagined will pile up. Bullying cases... real or imagined will pile up. Old grudges....real or imagined to be settled. Wait for the words "independent tribunal" to pop up. Every man, woman or whatever for themselves as cases come before the courts. Hundreds of witnesses compelled under oath to testify. Can such a small organisation survive such an implosion?