Report of the Independent Review Group of the Defence Forces

Manic Moran

Let's take a slightly more professional attitude to this, brought up by Beechwoodspark, shall we?

A new report has been released, which is garnering some attention on RTE. For those who want to read it and make some informed commentary, see here. (I've no idea why it asks for a password, seems to work fine for me)

https://www.gov.ie/pdf/?file=https://assets.gov.ie/251296/a269a8f7-d842-4364-aba6-f106277fcd6d.pdf#page=null

See, for example,

https://www.rte.ie/news/2023/0328/1366701-defence-review/

Please try to be a little more specific in your various responses to ensure blood pressure as a whole remains low.

sparky42

Some articles from the Irish Times regarding the reaction from report:

https://www.irishtimes.com/politics/2023/03/30/defence-forces-sex-assault-allegations-to-be-sent-to-gardai-rather-than-military/

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/social-affairs/2023/03/30/the-final-nail-in-the-coffin-officers-fear-abuse-report-may-be-the-last-straw/

Dohvolle

There seems to be a lot of denial from some sectors on social media. Perhaps a reality check is required.

My first annual training, in the 80s at a time when you could be 17 to join the DF, and they took apprentices at 15, i.e children.

I witnessed people putting boot polish on their comrades face while they slept (LOLs)

Recruits being physically assaulted by NCOs for smiling. (this is serious now)

Being threatened with physical violence by an armed NCO. (whatcha gonna do)

Being sent on frivolous errands (for a joke).

Being mocked for their physical appearance, i.e acne, how they walked, or where they lived by NCOs

Being Foamed (shaving foam put on someones face while they slept) (hilarity)

Having their eyebrow shaved while you slept by a comrade with a disposable razor (oh the craic we had)

Having ones underwear ripped off as you got changed after duty hours (by an NCO-who was later convicted of raping a female fellow soldier, in civilian life). ROFLMAO

Being warned to be careful of the older Unmarried Male Sgt, because "he liked little boys". (Wait, what?)

Cadre Sgt who always needed to get completely undressed to go for a run, only when there was an audience. (thats a bit weird)

"Raiding parties" of NCOs breaking into recruits billets at night (after alcohol) and turning everyone out of their beds, and dragging the weakest into the (barely functioning) showers where they were effectively water boarded.

Being drilled after duty hours by NCOs who were also off duty and after alcohol.

Recruits sleeping in the back of trucks, or the stand to room if a friend was on duty, instead of taking their chances with the drunken mob on the last night of camp.

Ah but that was the 80s, Different times, right? Perhaps. However following the arrival of females into all arms of the Reserve , it continued, but became more sinister.

"the girls" were under the protection of certain officers, (in the absence of female officers or NCO's) or Cadre NCOs.

These guardians would bring "the girls" out to their own watering hole, fill them with alcohol, tell them who to ignore/watch/distrust and later on "help them back to their billets" in their personal vehicles, their rank precluding any difficult questions from the Gate policeman as they returned to barracks. (these days it's called grooming). Other NCOs or their male recruit peers were kept in billets far away and out of sight.

The introduction of Admin Instruction A7 in the early 2000s only made it worse. Now these predatory Officers could coach a "victim" to make a complaint (which required neither judge nor evidence) against anyone that they felt "could be trouble", and the subject of the complaint would be punished outside the normal disciplinary process, at the discretion of the unit commander, summarily, and isolated from the rest of the unit.

The role of an NCO in the reserve at this point was not to train, but to babysit, to make sure none of the girls went home pregnant (This was an order given to me as an NCO on stand to) and if there was after hours socialisation, that any contact was with consent.

But hey, it was all just banter, part and parcel of military life, if you don't like it... blah blah etc.

Manic Moran

Being sent on frivolous errands (for a joke)

This one is harmless and we still do it in the US. As we do taping the new officer to the gun tube, firing his hat out the cannon, and a few other such things.

What's important is the manner in which it is done. It can be done in a demeaning/abusive manner, and it can be done in a tone of collegiality.

Larbre34

Yeah it's harmless Manic and it's done in all jobs (go get me a packet of skyhooks and a tin of rainbow paint), but what about everything else Dohvolle wrote?!

Well described Dohvolle, very sinister, very sobering.

Probably be quite a few quiet early retirements ahead of the statutory inquiry I'm guessing......

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120420093#Comment_120420093

I can assure you there was no collegiality involved in the case I described.

It was very much a case of "let's have a laugh at the weaker guys expense". It's bullying, pure and simple, it has no business in any workplace.

Notmything

Pretty sure anyone who served has stories about things that when they happened were "banter" but these days should get you kicked out or worse. Reading tweets from ex and still serving saying they never saw anything makes me question them.

One incident I remember was two female privates having buckets of water pored over them as an impromptu wet t-shirt competition, the person poring the water was a captain.

My sister joined the reserve in 06. Went to recruit camp in Kilworth, the stories she told me about NCO's claiming female recruits for themselves was disgusting. She was lucky one of the cadre made sure everyone was aware he would not let anyone "claim" her as he was a friend of mine.

But then again he didn't do much for the other females on camp.

Dohvolle

I remember hearing about a FCA retirement do, being held for a company commander, in the middle of recruit camp at a local Hotel. Training finished at lunchtime to allow the girls go home and get dressed up, and the dress was smart formal.

The male recruits finished training a the normal time. All the dirty old men had a great night eyeing up the teenage girls in their cocktail dresses.

Recruit training started following morning at normal time. Apparently if you didn't know better you'd swear there was a sniper at work on the morning parade, bodies dropping everywhere.

Who decides to have a retirement do in the MIDDLE of annual training?

Heard the carry-on aboard Naval Vessels in the 90s was shocking also. Slua Muri go aboard for their week on a ship, have most of their uniform stolen before they even get a bunk, guys in just their y-fronts in the mess for shock value, the only movies being shown in the evening were porn. Basically making the environment as hostile as possible, making it clear the Slua were unwelcome. All tolerated by those on the upper decks, as it discouraged others from doing likewise and giving the ships officers the headache of having to come off patrol to collect one or 2 lads for just a week.

The Air Corps stories are a whole other level though.

The whistleblowers there made protected disclosures to the minister and successive GOCAC and COS, but nothing was done. People getting dunked in drums of carcinogenic chemicals as part of their initiation, or painted with axle grease. Needless to say the victims here have a wide range of health problems now, of which the Air Corps denies any responsibility.

It all comes down at the end to lack of respect for fellow soldiers, sailors and aviators, poor discipline and very poor leadership.

sparky42

The president has weighed in:

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/sense-of-shame-president-higgins-slams-criminal-acts-in-statement-on-defence-forces-sexual-abuse-scandal-42412927.html

Larbre34

The President is absolutely right to. Although a political issue now, UnahÉ has a unique position concerning the DF as Supreme Commander and is perfectly entitled to express anger and dismay at the treatment of servicemen and women.

I must say there is a sense of momentum building here, even ahead of the Statutory Inquiry, to immediately address and redress these offences.

I don't think that it is at all credible for Seán Clancy to have said he only became aware of the true extent of the problem over the past year after the Women of Honour came forward.

Because its not just about the Women of Honour. He was Senior Staff Officer AC Personnel, Senior Staff Officer AC Support, GOC Air Corps for 2 years and D/CoS Support for 2 years, all of which had senior levels of responsibility for HR issues and welfare of service personnel.

When it comes to the assaults with toxic chemicals in the Air Corps that Dohvolle has described above, I just don't accept that he wasn't aware of it. Its not possible.

And I think he and some other general and command staff are going to have to fall on their sabres over this, in order to begin a systemic rebuilding of trust and conduct in the DF.

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120423989#Comment_120423989

I think you are right about the COS, a lot of the articles are asking about his role. When the elected reps start using the term FULL CONFIDENCE its time to look over your shouldee

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120424143#Comment_120424143

The follow up question though is who would replace him? As said this is current issues, so any of the senior leadership have at best been ignoring the problems and crimes throughout their careers, at worst…

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120424184#Comment_120424184

Major General Maureen O'Brien?

Larbre34

Thats true Sparky. And if so, it might be time for an appointment from outside the State. As far as I can see, any EU citizen with the requisite military career achievement would be eligible.

Although perhaps because of the upcoming reorganisation of the general staff structure, it might be best to appoint the first Chief of Defence from outside the State and in the meantime appoint a transitional Chief of Staff to see out the role. In that regard I would agree with Roadmaster and appoint Maj. Gen. Maureen O'Brien until her retirement in approximately 3 years.

That ought to be more than enough time to legislate for the necessary changes to DF command.

Manic Moran

Appointing a person from outside the military to the top military role in the country? I have many issues with that. Appoint one as Special Staff to the CoS (if you want to give him/her authority) or advisor to the Minister (if you don’t) if you really have to get an outside officer involved.

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120424603#Comment_120424603

They did it for AGS without issue

Claw Hammer

Pay peanuts, get monkeys.

The chickens are coming home to roost now!

Claw Hammer

The government can appoint an Inspector General to sort out the DF. It is provided for in the Defence Acts 1954-2015

The Inspector-General.

14.—(1) The Government may, whenever they think fit, by order under this subsection declare that there shall be an Inspector-General of the Defence Forces, and whenever any such order is made and is in force there shall be an Inspector-General of the Defence Forces.

(2) The Government may by order under this subsection revoke any order made under subsection (1) of this section.

(3) The Inspector-General of the Defence Forces shall be an officer of the Permanent Defence Force and shall be appointed by, and hold office during the pleasure of, the President.

(4) The Inspector-General of the Defence Forces shall be charged with the performance of such duties as the Government may from time to time assign to him.

Larbre34

Don't agree with an Inspector General. Thats a uniformed position, who would by description be subordinate to the Chief of Staff. In any case, the Defence Act needs a complete review and renewal in line with the Commission implementation.

The DF may well need an independent Inspectorate in the mould of AGS, to ratify standards and deal independently with grievous wrong-doing and bad practice.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120424688#Comment_120424688

Not the same thing at all.

Drew Is a policeman familiar with policing the people of Ireland. Just with a different accent. the RUC/PSNI have been co-operating professionally for decades. Policing is policing. Not Soldiering.

Soldiering requires loyalty for leadership to succeed. MM couldn't show up tomorrow in DFTC and take over 1st Armoured, regardless of his experience, because his Irish DF experience ended long long ago. He'd have to do a saluting course first, and might be lucky to join as a OF-3

Larbre34

And I'm sure the ordinary ranks feel so unbelievably loyal to the current commanders and general staff, what with how they've protected their more physically vulnerable comrades from debasing assaults, harassment and retaliation for simply living their lives.......

We are talking about this through the prism of the current structures. Those structures are about to be completely changed. So current conventions can be binned.

Service personnel will be loyal to those in authority who protect them, trust them, advocate for them, empower them.

No one is advocating for battalion level commanders to be parachuted in and take over, those are the sort of positions that need corporate knowledge, I'm talking about a Chief and/or Vice Chief of Defence with a transformational mindset, with command experience in a true 21st Century force and instincts honed in a truly integrated service with a strong reserve element and excellent human resource management practices.

DF members won't be told to be loyal to such a commander, they won't have to be. It might be the first time in their careers that they can have genuine faith in what their organisation is about.

Manic Moran

It seems to me that if the DF are without any competent senior leadership whatsoever who could engender some form of loyalty from the ground that one must wonder who they have been giving flags and colonelcies to, and I would suspect they would have to replace more than just the CoS.

The 1st Armoured comment threw me for a second, as I'm in the US 1st Armored.

roadmaster

Interesting how Army sources claim Mellet & Clancy didnt have "Experenice" to be COS

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2023/04/01/ex-helicopter-pilot-lieut-gen-sean-clancy-faces-hardest-rescue-mission-in-reforming-defence-forces/

Grassy Knoll

Are we heading into witch-hunt territory now … be careful, this could see a serious purge and set the DF back irrevocably for years - who didn’t know, as opposed to condone, initiate or participate … sometimes a line needs to be drawn under problems and we move on albeit with better structures and zero tolerance on a go forward basis, but of course what will likely happen is the purge …

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120426251#Comment_120426251

Interesting, but unsurprising.

The army were never happy that one of theirs did not get the top job, as it should be, as is written in stone. I've heard from numerous sources that both get next to zero cooperation from senior management within the army. The creation of CHOD cannot come soon enough. The notion that the Air Corps and Navy were the equivalent to a Brigade of the army should never have been permitted to continue on an Island Nation, with a small land border with a friendly nation.

The Colonels will be happy to fling Clancy under the bus here, making way for one of their own to replace him (even if, as Senator Clonan has suggested, senior serving army officers were involved in isolating and bullying him following his expose 2 decades ago).

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120426371#Comment_120426371

Id say there are plenty in defence forces senior managmemt looking at ways to throw people under the bus to advance there carrers out of this

Mellet for the craic should write an article in the times suggesting he belives the army should be redudced in size to he transformed in to a marine corps under the Navy

Signore Fancy Pants

Having spent over 2 decades in the DF (retired now), I'm shocked and appalled with the amount of accusations coming out.

When I say that I never heard of a female soldier being raped by a colleague, I'm being genuine. That includes canner talk etc, not once. Accused of sexual harassment?, yes I have heard and witnessed that from both sexes, but verbally only.

I know of 4 instances when an NCO rode recruits, 3 male NCOs and one female. The male NCOs were repremanded, not sure about the female.

I know of numerous female Privates and Corporals over the years who would offer themselves up to a senior rank, then blackmail them for years for an easy time. I know of female recruits who gave fellow recruits blowjobs for favours.

I know of female Privates who had a valid reputation for riding rings around them. Giving the impression they were easy, which made them a magnet for male and female advances. Some welcome, some not.

Historically, and before my time (in the 80's I think), I know of at least one male senior NCO who used to sexually assault male Privates, regularly apparently. I think there may have been a concerted effort to cover it up.

Overseas, I know of one recent male on male encounter. The story of which is still unclear. Two close friends, one gay, one straight. The straight guy ended up leaving because of it.

Overseas again, female gang bangs in the lines, leading to marriage break ups.

Sexual harrassment / assault / violence is indefendable, and should be dealt with in the harshest of terms.

Now when I was in the FCA, Id say I seen and heard more sexual harrassment in 3 years, than in the 22 I did in the PDF.

There's no room for that **** in an organisation based on heirarchy and trust. Those who have been identified without question should be made a blinding example of. Those accused should be fully investigated and dealt with appropriately.

Bullying etc is a harder one to call, as everyone has their own tolerances and perceptions of what is acceptable or not. It all comes down to context, but clear cut harrassment and bullying should also be dealt with harshly, all the mechanisims are in place.

My recruit training in 1999 would not be able to occur now, like many others, same with my NCO course. You would be accusing someone of bullying every 3 minutes. Id wonder how many of the complainants "felt" bullied, or is it only those with undeniable accounts of bullying.

I can say the quality of personnel entering the DF has dropped dramatically in the last decade, and maybe this is a factor. Or maybe its a neglected organisation that prefers to be blind to serious issues, just so people get promoted.

Either way despite genuine serious issues reported, if I was a CT head, it looks like an element of an agenda to finally get rid of the DF.

roadmaster

Going my all the articles in the papers and journos that normally dont comment on the defence forces righting articles there seams a sense of blood in the water and scalp wanted

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120427060#Comment_120427060

Honestly given the report, a scalp was always the most likely outcome, whether its from external forces as you mentioned, or internal issues like the Army not liking not being the CoS, to the basic reality as mentioned that its hard to believe that someone whose served for so long had "no idea" of any of the issues or the scale of them (to that I think the comment from General Clancy hasn't helped his position much).

The idea of an external appointment to me doesn't really hold up either, both because of issues already mentioned, and frankly because I can't see the attraction for any senior office of another military to actually take the job even if it was offered, not with the restrictions and state of the DF.

Alkers

I don't have the document to hand ATM (read it yesterday) but it also picks up on the (perceived) two class system between officers and enlisted persons. I definitely find that younger officers currently are more grounded than some of the older ones but you definitely see the elitist attitude amongst some of them.

I always find it odd that DF leadership material makes reference to leadership examples from past wars, with officers refusing to eat until their men are fed, then the Naval Service have their dinner served to them by enlisted persons in formal attire, what message does that convey?!

Larbre34

Of course there's a two class system between officers and enlisted, thats the whole point. If personnel are assigned as Stewards, thats the job, they must do it do their best ability. So long as they are treated with dignity and respect while doing it, no problem.

Just to circle back to those female gangbangs out foreign....... female only like?