The distance debate

El Guapo!

Bifurcation was probably the way they should have went with this but the manufacturers hit the roof so now it's the same rollback for everyone.

In reality, I'd say 99% of amateur golfers won't notice much of a difference from this. The fact is, most amateurs aren't hitting the ball out of the middle on a consistent basis. There's probably an argument that when an amateur "catches a flier", it's actually them finding the middle of the face for once.

Amateurs saying they can't afford to lose 5 yards on their drive are talking through their hole. Being honest with yourself here....who carries their driver the same yardage every time? There's always a variance of probably 20 - 40 yards anyway from drive to drive. Amateurs are just not consistent enough to complain about this in any meaningful way.

Anyway, unless you're playing premium balls only, you're likely already playing a ball that's conforming to the new regulations. As a rule of thumb, I'd say any ball with a low compression rating is likely to conform.

From the statement released by the R&A....

A significant portion of golf ball models that are currently in the market – and more than 30 percent of all golf ball models submitted for conformance across the game – are expected to remain conforming after these changes are applied.

almostover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121462303#Comment_121462303

Interestingly what is most likely to happen is that top level golf will become even more elite and reserved for more athletic specimens. The pros have 4 years to prepare for this. You can bet your house that each and every one of them will be in the gym packing on muscle and speed training for the next 4 years to offset any distance loss.

Your average mid handicap weekend warrior who has a wife / husband and kids won't have the time to transform their physicality to earn back the lost yards. That's where the real difference will come about. The pros will have the resources to adapt. Most amateurs won't.

The affect on the ladies game will be even bigger. How many of the female members of your course hit the ball 'too far'? Likely that most need all the distance they can get. Same for seniors, they've lost their physical prowess and can't get it back. This is a bifurcation in that it will have very little effect at PGA tour level and the most effect on those who are at the margins of the game.

And for what? 11yds loss to the PGA tour pro per drive? A total of 154yd per round maximum. Hardly going to save St. Andrews with that? This myth of the pros hitting it 'too far' was around with Nicklaus, Miller, Greg Norman etc.... The big, athletic guys always hit it far. And that has always been an advantage.

Stupid way to go about protecting historic courses IMHO. I hate this idea that there's a 'correct' way to play a course. There's only one correct way, take as few strokes as possible.

Quahog217

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121462303#Comment_121462303

Really never understood the argument of get longer clubs in the hands of the pros. Will you find it exciting to see a PGA tour player hit a 5 iron to 40 feet and 2 putt for par? Would you find it exciting for them to lay up and wedge onto Par 5s instead of going for it?

The PGA tour on their social media platforms will often have huge drive from Rory or Rahm or Hovland, they never show a clip of Brian Harman hitting one 280 down the middle!

And if you think of the Ryder cup what made it so good was the driveable par 4's and reachable par 5s.

And as for rolling back for amateur's it an awful decision. Slower rounds, more club into every green, golf is supposed to be fun!!!

Quahog217

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121464010#Comment_121464010

The biggest irony here is it will actually eliminate and players on the lower end of the spectrum on Tour. They would need to find 5MPH of swing speed to gain back the distance. They will be replaced by guys that are likely not as good but can swing it 120MPH, so likely to see less of the Brian Harmans and more college beefcakes on tour.

Trampas

As said 99% of amateurs won’t notice it but 99% will use it as an excuse for a badly hit shot that doesn’t carry

OEP

The people complaining and they're probably using a ball that has been sitting in a lake for 2 years. Or a cut up ball

blackbox

It should be quite possible to develop a ball that has a higher coefficient of elasticity and also a higher aerodynamic drag.

This would spring off the club face faster, but would slow down faster (at a rate proportional to the square of the velocity)

A ball like this could reduce distance for professional long hitters, but have a much lesser effect on on amateurs.

Ivefoundgod

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121464010#Comment_121464010

Don't even know where to start here. First, this is not intended to bring back historic courses into the rotation and they have already accepted that within 10-20 years this rollback will have been overcome by elite players. The point of this is basically to maintain the status quo for a while, they've already said they'll be revisiting this and expect something similar will be required in the future. Its not going to change how pros play St Andrews but that is not its aim. You're making counter points to an argument that nobody on the rollback side is making.

The average male amateur is going to lose 3-5 yards on their driver. If you think the average male amateur can even tell the difference between a drive they hit right now that goes 220 and one that goes 215 then you are living in a dream world. They're not going to be able to tell a blind bit of difference if you gave them a rolled back ball and a non rolled back ball tomorrow. Seniors are going to notice it even less and ladies are losing 1-3 yards on average with their driver, seriously like how you think any club member is going to notice this is beyond me. Their might be some very low players(and i mean scratch or plus at minimum) who hit the ball a long way that might start to notice it but that is a very, very small number in your average club.

As another poster said, nobody will be able to notice the difference but it'll be another excuse for shite play.

Russman

At a guess, I'd say this type of change for the amateur club golfer, if it was brought in without any announcement, virtually nobody would ever notice. I genuinely doubt we'd notice 5 yards on our drives - I mean, the tee markers on a tee box move more than 5 yards from Saturday to Sunday in most clubs. Strike will always be king. The slightest mis-strike could easily add a few hundred RPM of spin and take a few yards off a drive even now. That said, I'm going to absolutely destroy my own argument 😀 by looking at my Shot Scope data and seeing that for the years 2020, 2021, 2022 & 2023 my driver distance playing average was within 1 yard each year apart from 2022 when it was 5 yards longer for some reason and my stroke average was almost a shot lower in 2022 (around 30 rounds in each year, same driver and same course). Hmm, maybe I take back some of the above !! Although I certainly didn't notice it during the seasons.

WRT exciting golf or not, personally I find a US Open far more watchable and entertaining than some place where they're shooting 28 under par and you're listening to the commentators fawning over some generic pro who hit his drive 387 yards and a wedge 168 yards for an eagle on the tricky 14th.

I think bifurcation was a better option. The ruling bodies were obviously determined to do "something" and with so much pushback from the manufacturers and Tours, the stumbled onto this. I suspect the pushback during the consultation period assumed doing nothing was a possible outcome, when from the R&A and USGA's point of view, it really wasn't.

When all's said and done, I think we could well be talking about this after its introduced and there'll be almost no difference across the board.

Ivefoundgod

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121464891#Comment_121464891

No because thats not what will happen, elite long iron play isn't rewarded anymore because its not required. Result being that only the likes of Rory, Rahm etc. are actually good at it. Look at Rorys finish to last years scottish open, him and McIntyre hit incredible long irons into greens and made tap in birdies. The majority of the field can't do that, thats what i want to see. Elite iron play should be rewarded, there'll still be plenty of holes where you'll see wedges to 5 feet, this won't change that. But there might just a few more times where a par 5 isn't Driver, 7iron. Tour pros hitting 3 woods into par 5s is a fantastic sight but you rarely see it anymore. Anything that brings that potentially back into play on a few holes is great. Most tour players are very good with short irons, but thats boring to watch (for me anyway) and not as challenging. Go back and watch masters tournaments from the early 90s, they still hit the ball really close, just not as many of them were able to do it. Look at Faldo back in his prime, unbelievable with a long iron.

You'll still have long drives comparatively, don't see how social media posts has anything to do with it. Average people that engage with social media posts aren't watching pro golf tournaments on sky every weekend anyway.

Not sure why you think there won't be drivable par 4s or reachable 5s anymore, its 9-11 yards for elite players and courses can move tees forward.

Not going to repeat myself RE: amateur game other than to say its going to cause slower rounds is just idle speculation with nothing to back it up and is being parroted by OEMs so can be sure is just agenda based. As I said above if you think losing 5 yards off a drive is going to cause slower rounds i don't know what to tell you but i'm confident if I went out tomorrow and put a rolled back ball into every second players bags they'd not notice the slightest difference by the end of their round.

I look forward to all the hackers (i include myself in that bracket) moaning about how much distance they've lost when this comes in, same people who whinge about conditions or wind or too many pints last night to excuse their bad round.

RoadRunner

A good yardstick to me seems to be the difference in carry between summer and winter conditions. Your slightly reduced winter carry distances would be what you will see in the summer whenever it comes in.

I would prefer no change, but I'm reasonably happy with what's proposed, because when the "bifurcation" term was bandied about in the past year or two, I really hated the idea of the pro game being treated differently to the rest of us. The best aspect of the top level of the sport is that from a fundamental perspective there's literally no difference between when Rory McIlroy/Jon Rahm pushes their tee into the ground on the first teebox at, say, Royal Portrush versus when you or I do it.

FixdePitchmark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121465491#Comment_121465491

I don't agree with this - we have all looked back at the "real" pro tees on these courses and they are very different courses.

And when we play one of the top top course - it is a time they let tourists in - and to make things even more different , they basically have you off the ladies tees at some locations. Add to that, the rough length and the pin positions. I genuinely think it is a different sport and course.

It is somewhat entertaining. But I do think golf has got to be the most delusional sport out there in relation to our perception of our ability , us referencing ourselves to pros and the need to have their equipment and then at lessons looking at what say Rory does versus you -- it's comical. When soccer lads watch the pros play soccer they know they can't do what they are doing on tv.

The ball (and equipment) is going way too far, for the pros in particular - and what they were doing and are doing is far too little. And now the industry has watered it down what they are doing.

I'm beginning to think golf is a selfish sport (well not beginning to be honest) - it is the ultimate solo game - and perhaps in that mindset, we lack an ability to accept the greater good. Even if that change has an impact on you , you need to think outside of you.

RoadRunner

Unsure I understand your disagreement fix.

I think you think professionals should use different gear to limit their shot distance, but that this change shouldn't apply to amateurs? You're calling out golf as a selfish sport that needs to embrace change, regardless of its effect on us, but you seem to want this change to be adjusted so that it doesn't impact individuals like yourself (with a ball speed approaching the 170s), who, let's be honest, drive the ball further than 99% of all amateurs. I walked Portrush during the Open. Your driving is indistinguishable from them, but "they" must be stopped? 😏

big_drive

I don't think I really care about these changes, can't see them effecting how I enjoy the game. If I'm shorter off tee as a result and hitting longer clubs into greens then my scores will probably be slightly worse. But then everyone else should be as well so in a club competition if you were finishing 3rd for example you'll probably still finish 3rd if the changes are effecting the majority in the same fashion

El Guapo!

One of the arguments I repeatedly heard against the rollback was that golfers like playing the same equipment as the pros and playing on the same courses etc etc.

If any golfer seriously thinks that them teeing it up at a particular course is the same thing as a top tour pro doing it, then they're fooling themselves. And if they think the equipment the pros are using are the same as the ones you grabbed off the shelf in McGuirks and shoved in your bag, then you're absolutely delusional. It's a marketing tool rammed down our throats by the manufacturers, and it's a lie golfers feed themselves to overstate their own ability and presence in the sport.

FixdePitchmark already spoke about courses being set up completely differently, and tee boxes being a mile further back for pros, so I won't add to that. But regarding the equipment.....

There are so many pros using "Tour Issue Only" clubs, or prototype clubs that the amateur golfer can't get their hands on.

Not to mention the insane fitting process the pros go through. Everything is fine tuned down to the very smallest of margins.....Additional weights not available to the public are added to clubs. Hot melt is applied in certain areas to alter the feel and weight. Lofts are not just in 1 degree increments - they are adjusted down to fractions of a degree to get the most precise gapping they can. Bespoke shafts are made for each tour pro and are crafted specifically for that particular golfer. All processes not available to the general public. Prototype and bespoke putters are widespread.

Even down to the golf ball itself. A quick glance at the conforming ball list shows that there are a heap of variations on the ProV1 for example. And it's the same for most ball manufacturers. There are ones on the conforming list that are not available to the public. They all have very minute, specific differences that the average Joe wouldn't be able to tell. But the pros and their fitters know it will perform in a specific way that suits them, so that's why they use. Sure, there are golfers on tour that use regular ProV1 etc but there are also plenty who don't. Even the ones who do, get their balls hand picked and rigourously tested prior to use in a tournament.

Overall, the equipment we use is very similar to the pros. But at the same time, it's a very different final product.

FixdePitchmark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121467965#Comment_121467965

The pros are averaging 180 - yes averaging. Not looking at a max of your Sunday best

And if for the greater good - as I think it is. I will take a reduction in distance - as it make no odds to me - as I play very short courses - and when I play a championship course , I'm miles forward - and WHS will sort it all out in a matter of weeks anyway.

If I have to hit an Odd 5 iron instead of a 6 - so what (and looking at the maths above ) I think we were overstating the impact on irons for amateurs' distances. And as shown the impact above is not linear - and this is not surprising as most functions to do with energy are squared - be it drag or kinetic.

Bifurcation was the way to go - but the industry are just being selfish - R&A and US body should have just being harder - no entry to an event unless you play the professional conforming ball - and this ball is very different - far more suppressed then what was proposed. We are at a point in the game a par 5 is pointless unless near 700 yards. It is mad stuff.

dan_ep82

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121468158#Comment_121468158

No golf tour has to conform to the change in their own tournaments, so they can't force anything in those.

There's still a lot of information missing, particularly hard numbers. If they can say LPGA Average swing speed will lose X distance they should be able to show swing speed,carry,spin etc. The graph they show is total not carry which muddles it a bit more. I expected the official release would have included as much data as they could cram in.

Ivefoundgod

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121468242#Comment_121468242

I’m nearly sure all of that was contained in the 150 page plus distance report they did which formed the basis for this change. This release is aimed at the average player who has no interest or comprehension of what those figures mean. Most club players haven’t a clue what their swing speed is so not much point going into that detail in this release.

almostover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121465302#Comment_121465302

I see your point that the differences will be small for the average club golfer. But the game isn't too easy for us, or our courses aren't too short. Did a trackman gapping session last year and I'm about 245yd carry with the driver, I'll see 5-7 yds loss according to the PGA data. Plus maybe 3-4 yds on the mid irons. That will be a loss of 1 club on an average par 4. Maybe a 7i instead on an 8i. Not a major penalty on an individual hole basis. But over a season of 40-50 rounds that will make a difference, maybe 1 shot overall to the handicap.

As someone with a high single digit handicap looking to get lower, it now means that in the next 5 years I'll have to find 10yds or so through speed training etc. to negate that shot. Again, not insurmountable.

And I agree, anyone playing a lower compression ball already will see zero difference. Everyone will be playing the equivalent of a Titleist Trufeel or a Srixon Soft Feel in 2030. Or a spinny ball if you want greenside control.

I honestly think it'll make zero difference to the pro game, absolutely zero. Might just slow the distance progression by a year or two. It won't make a massive difference to us average Joe's and Jane's either, will just make getting the handicap down marginally harder. I just think for us recreational golfers the game is hard enough as it is and anything that makes it even marginally harder isn't a good idea if you want to get playing numbers up.

Ivefoundgod

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121468654#Comment_121468654

We hit the ball similar distances and similar handicap too. I’ve thought about getting speed training gear for a while but I’d be willing to bet that both of us would be much better off investing in a few lessons rather than trying to gain distance seeing as we already hit it further than most amateurs. I think if you are honest with yourself, it’s not the 6 or 7 yards distance that is causing you to lose shots. If you think it is I’d also bet you’d get the ten yards from lessons or properly fit driver without any need for speed training.

big_drive

Lot of people online saying they'll need to try find ways of adding distance to counteract what they will lose. But would it not be as handy to just get better at hitting longer clubs and get more accurate. As someone mentioned above forget chasing distance and maybe get a few lessons instead, improve technique and it'll probably quickly make up for any distance lost

OEP

I'm sorry but you're delusional if you think you'll notice losing 8 yards or whatever a hole. That's just a pin position, or a tee marker placement. Having 8 yards further into the trees isn't much of an advantage. Or missing the green right by an extra 3 yards.

FixdePitchmark

Also 70 % of golf is from 150 yards or less ..so amateurs are completely over exaggerating the potential impact on their handicap . The very thing we completely altered in the last few years with WHS anyway...

Russman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121469243#Comment_121469243

You're right Fix, and I broadly agree with you. I suppose the flip side of that is that you'll probably hit it closer from 130 yards than 140 yards. Now I don't for a second think your average club golfer will notice anything at all. I'm even still to be fully convinced that the pros will really see much change, I think 15 yards is arguably still within the variance that a slightly better or worse strike would give even a pro. They'll probably notice it more with the irons, where they're very precise. Ever seen that video clip of Tiger talking to Morikawa at some Taylor Made promo thing, where he says Charlie outdrove him the other day ? Here is one of the best strikers ever explaining that he hit his drive a little spinny and it popped up, and his kid son hit a rocket and got it past him - I don't think Joe 16 handicapper is anywhere near consistent enough to really notice his flushed drive is maybe 5 yards shorter, especially in Ireland with our variable weather and ground conditions. Of course internet 16 handicapper will notice because he swings it at 125 and is only off 16 coz he 3 putts every green 😁😁. I can hear it now, "....these new balls are sh1t, I was able to carry that corner, even on a bad hit, with the old ones, f--king ruining the game they are, bloody joke.....I'll never make the Pierce Purcell now....."

RoadRunner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121468158#Comment_121468158

You want the pro's to be hitting a far more greatly reduced ball, significantly different to what Am's would play. You want them to play a different game, and you think that's okay because you already think that they are playing a different game (they aren't!).

Shots like tiger bending the ball 60 yards in the air around a tree and out of a bunker hitting the green with so much sidespin that it leaps to the right when it pitched on the green, or bubba's genius wedge out of the trees in the masters are special because we get what they did. You can drop a ball right now at marker on the 16th fairway on the k club where Rory hit his 3wood from, take a swing and understand what he did. But were there to be a different ruleset for pros, if some future pro were to hit an incredible shot say in 2032 while striking some sort of ball that's different to the sport that I play, I hope you enjoy it. I wont be watching it. I'll be watching the top amateurs/liv/or whatever is the apex of the sport I play.

RoadRunner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121468072#Comment_121468072

You just need to get yourself fit for your clubs El Guapo and you could be on the pga tour too 😄

If someone get to a level that they are so sensitive as to the spin characteristics of their ball that you require a new type of ball that falls in between say the pro v1 and the pro v1x that some pro plays, they are in luck, manufacturers already provide these offerings at reasonable prices: https://www.golfonline.co.uk/titleist-pro-v1x-left-dash-golf-balls-12-balls?ad=google_shopping&utm_source=PPC&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=EU&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiAmsurBhBvEiwA6e-WPDatKZXknkPt8TlpjFBIaXjqVTTn_sl7yL77AnPzG6D1nTOU16KIphoCMdEQAvD_BwE

Look, there isn't some conspiracy that the pro's are using non confirming clubs made out of unobtanium faces. They use the same gear as amateurs, they're just good.

FixdePitchmark

I just don't get you Roadrunner...none of the shots you are talking about will disappear...and after watching Cam Young in the Open Last year...not that I was delusional before...but no amateur should ever have ambition to think they can do what them guys are doing.

I genuinely think that is delusional..

big_drive

At the end of the day few of us here hit it perfect everytime. So the loss I believe won't even be noticed. I could hit 5 drives today and I'm sure there could be a fair level of difference between best and worst drive so I believe to really notice change you'd need to be hitting every shot exactly the same right now

El Guapo!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121470123#Comment_121470123

Come on now, I never said all it takes is a good fitting nor did I say they're using non-conforming clubs. But the fact is they are using Tour only clubs, bespoke shafts, heavily modified versions of general release clubs, and once off prototype clubs. Yes they use standard stuff too but even most of that is modified to suit the individual.

And yeah I know they're just extremely good too. They'd hammer most people while using a fisher price set of clubs.

I just think you have this overly romanticised view of golf that wants to cling onto the notion that you teeing it up is literally the same thing as Rory doing it, when it really isn't for a number of reasons. And a slightly different ball for pros versus for the rest of us isn't gonna make that any worse.

monkeybutter

all seems a bit pointless to solve what is a small 20 year jump in driving distance, like what difference is 10 yards when you can drive the ball 300

where club and ball tech has stood still, but the tech to measure you has gone from zero to 100

and at least on a pro level they have totally changed, agewize and fitness too

its remarkable the change has remained so small