The distance debate

Russman

Not sure if this has been posted elsewhere, Mods feel free to move/close

Announcement expected tomorrow, potentially about rolling back the ball…..

https://irishgolfer.ie/latest-golf-news/2023/03/13/ra-usga-joint-statement-expected-to-announce-further-measures-to-curb-the-golf-ball/

big_drive

Not sure if i agree or not but it would certainly be interesting

Rikand

Just when I was finally hitting the ball over 200 yards, they are going to rein me back in

CSWS101

Wouldn't expect any changes on the amateur level. Definitely the right thing to do, there is absolutely nothing appealing about near 500 yard par 4s.

Russman

https://www.golfpass.com/travel-advisor/articles/usga-r-a-golf-ball-distance-rollback-2026

Hard to disagree with a lot of it IMHO. Plus it would likely eventually filter down into the amateur game over time I reckon. If anything I'd have taken a little more than 15 yards off it 😀

monkeybutter

so its the start of a consultation process?

seems a bit pointless really

was Bay Hill better without someone trying to punch it across the water? not really

blue note

I'm certainly glad to see this. Far too many courses on the pro circuit are being overpowered. Taking away 15 yards might have more than 15 yards of an effect on holes too, if suddenly the pros can't cut that corner. Some of the Open courses in particular were becoming slightly dull because they were too easy to overpower. Please God this will bring them a step back to the challenges they used to be for the pros.

I'd actually like to see this imposed on us too. It's a brave thing to say, because you're opening yourself up to people misinterpreting what you're saying to be that you find courses too easy (with your mid-teen handicap). But in reality new courses for amateurs are longer than they would have been 30 years ago because they have to be. Older courses have been lengthened, because even the mid-teen handicappers are carrying the trouble from the tee on lots of holes (essentially making it pointless) or reaching par 5s in 2 with irons. The best example I can think of is the 4th hole in Tramore. It was probably the stand out hole on the course. When I started playing around 1998, most men would have hit driver to get up on a plateau. Any slice was down in a valley of trees - provisional required. A tricky chip out was the best outcome you could hope for. If you got it up onto the plateau you were still probably leaving yourself a low-mid iron to the green. Short on the approach was going to run back into a stream. If you were too safe on your drive and went left, you might have been looking at a wood from the rough or simply playing the hole as a par 5. The odd guy could carry it over the valley and deserved the reward of a pitch on for his second. Before the works on the course around 06, you were probably looking at a fairway to the end of the plateau to leave yourself a wedge to the green. Loads of people could carry the valley. A 5 wood for me aimed at the top of the ledge would take the valley out of play. Sliced a little was perfect, where I was aiming was still just a wedge to the green and even pulled left was a high iron. A hole that a society might talk about in the bar after had become an unremarkable par 4. Shorter courses mean that clubs can do more with the land they have, less walking for the golfers and less need for course upgrades due to courses becoming obsolete. And rowing back on distance for amateurs would help this.

Thankfully I'm brave enough to say that because of my massive balls. If I was a pro the R&A would be discussing whether to make them illegal.

Infoseeker1975

Should have happened years ago, I hit the ball miles further now [heading towards 50] than I did in my twenties & have a much lower handicap as a result, as much as I would like to believe it is all down to me😀 it is not!!!

monkeybutter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120358297#Comment_120358297

hard as it might be to hear, this isn't currently for you Bryson 😁

CSWS101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120358289#Comment_120358289

Amateurs playing these now longer courses with balls not going as far is a disaster for pace of play. Don't see how a roll-back has any positives for the amateur game due to the impact on pace and ease of play.

FixdePitchmark

15 yards if that is what it is - is not enough.

Would be great if the drag / COR / changes impact on higher ball speeds more.

It doesn't seem to make sense that it would be used at certain times and not others.

Anyway - the game was becoming silly as you could just bang ball up there - get loft on the ball, close to green even in rough - go for par 5s with wedges, classic courses - that are important for the history of the game were becoming pointless like - St Andrews - Augusta National - some of the classic US open courses.

This has been a debate for 10 years - and it was on the cards for a while - just off the top of my head - a few events were a bit silly for me.

Ryder Cup in 2021 - when they had no rough - mill the ball - wedge - putt - completely removed the range of skills required in golf - and turned it into a non contest

Bubba Watson in 2014 Masters - particularly on the 13th - turning an iconic risk reward hole into a drive and a wedge

What Byson was doing was amazing - and he has changed the game and debate. He basically used the distance to take his odds in the rough with very high loft - meaning he could use wedges etc and get spin. It was fascinating to watch - but whilst it was only one shot - he did cause panic and an acceleration of the debate when he went for the par 5 in Bay hill.

Then St Andrews this year - was a big moment - guys taking stuff off their final drive (even 3 woods( on 18 and easy eagle putts - it was an ok moment - where can the game go next.

Again - just a few that spring to mind - and single cases don't make good law - but there was a problem a long time ago - and it is just getting worse for course design - the history of the game etc.

I would prefer if this would not impact on amateurs at all - but that will be part of this process. They are full time athletes now - we need all the help we can get - they work at it.

paulos53

The fact that this is an optional local rule means it could get very messy. What happens if there isn't an agreement between tours or between majors to all use the same golf ball?

The announcement today mentions that it will apply to elite competitions. Will this include elite amateur competitions? Top amateurs play in a wide range of competitions so it will tricky for them to continually switch golf ball. It would also have an impact on WHS as different equipment will surely require different calculations to work out the Score Differential in elite amateur events.

spacecoyote

Interesting point from a guy on twitter (think he's a golf writer for CBS)

Basically saying, if it'll be a standard per cent reduction across the board that it would still hurt the shortest guys on tour more

This is his calc

CSWS101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120358735#Comment_120358735

Exact same thing as lengthening the courses, gives the bigger hitters more advantage. Need a less forgiving driver which emphasises centre strikes

dan_ep82

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120358760#Comment_120358760

Pretty sure most of them hit the center when they ping it 350

Imagine going to the Masters and watching Rory smoke a drive 220 down the middle, it would be hilarious

Heres the top 10 in driving distance, it doesn't correlate to the people you see on top of the leaderboard every week. Rahm and Rory are in there sure but the other 8 aren't exactly running away with it. Scottie is 22nd,Max Homa is 66th. If the top 10 in distance was the top 10 in the world they might have something,as it is it seems more about preserving courses than anything else.

Russman

I’m glad they’ve done something at least. I’d have gone further, but 15yds is a fairly significant drop off. Presumably there would be a drop off with iron performance too, albeit not as large. Imo if it makes a par 4 play driver 4 iron instead of driver 6 iron (and let’s be honest how often do the guys hit anything as long as a 6 iron on a par 4 ?) it’s a good thing I think.

Not fully sure I buy the pace of play argument for club golfers tho. It’s long been said that the real benefit in the modern ball was only for those swinging upwards of 110/111mph. Whether that’s totally true or not, I’ve no idea. Not too many club golfers at the speed. Besides the average joe has no business playing anything up around 7,000 yards anyway (I know lots will disagree with that). Play the appropriate tees and there will be no pace of play issue imho.

AyeGer

I've noticed some of the commentators in recent years being in awe if a player hit a 400 yard drive, it didn't sit well with me. How much longer could they make these courses to accommodate the bigger hitters. On balance its probably a good thing that they are reigning in the distance.

We will get to see the pros hitting more long irons and fairway woods into greens now instead of wedges. Maybe I'm being too optimistic, the reduction probably wont be that much.

bakerbhoy

They have the design already i would argue with the 90's ball from Titleist . Professional 90 and 100.

It was the parent design of the modern day pro v. It still had the liquid core.

spacecoyote

https://mygolfspy.com/usga-and-ra-announce-golf-ball-rollback-plan/

Decent write-up explaining some of the likely impacts here.

Interesting that Titleist are saying the only ball in their overall range that would currently conform to the proposed standard is the Pinnacle Soft.

Infoseeker1975

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120358598#Comment_120358598

I have no idea what you mean; I hit the ball much further now than 25 years ago due to the ball I use and the club, I have not advanced as I have simply aged!!

In my course there are a couple of par 4s' that I can drive in the summer which was never the case in the past, therefore my point would be that on my course if I was off 3/4 handicap 25 years ago, it probably equates to 1 now.

Russman

Having thought about it a little more, I'm wondering, IF its true that you only see the real substantial benefit of the modern ball at swing speeds of c110mph+, would it / could it also be the case that you won't see any drop off in the "new" ball if you're below that sort of speed ? Basically, would the average Joe even notice the drop off if he's well below 110mph ?

I dunno, the debate on some of the sites, particularly the US ones, seems to be between those who think 350yd drives and 25 under par totals are great entertainment, and those who think that's a bit ridiculous. Personally I don't find it any way entertaining to see a pro hit a drive and a 9 iron to a par 5 and hear the announcers fawn over it. That's not a par 5 its a par 4 in reality.

Then again, is it worth having two sets of ball rules for the sake of 200 guys on the PGA tour Vs the millions of club golfers the world over ? It'll be an interesting debate over the next while.

OEP

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120358760#Comment_120358760

The bigger hitters should have an advantage over shorter hitters - it's a skill to be able to hit it far. Reducing distance by a % is the fairest way to do it.

CSWS101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120360805#Comment_120360805

I'm not saying they shouldn't have an advantage, I would just like driving to become more challenging like it used to be. Think it would be more interesting if they look at the size of the driver and forgiveness. Players that can pull it off will still be rewarded, look at tiger before the introduction of bigger size heads reduced his advantage.

I mean look at this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puXMNw5rLz4

These lads are trying not to hit the center of the face and the driver is still so good. I have no sympathy for the manufacturers when they release garbage like this.

coillcam

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120360992#Comment_120360992

Consider the scenario where you nerf the driver in some way like changing the head size, reducing forgiveness + increase spin etc. Or just de facto ban entirely by loft/head size restrictions. Look at the high CHS pros, they can still hit a 3 wood around 300 yds or chase a 2 iron well out there in the right circumstance. Is that acceptable and do you ban drivers for amateurs also?

What about reducing the number of clubs allowed in the bag to 10? Would it be more important to have good gapping at the top of the bag VS versatility for short game and approach?

Driving is a skill and it'd be a shame to see it disappear. Swing speed can be trained. Most teenagers and elite amateurs nowadays are brought up with optimal swing mechanics. They've been schooled on trackman, video feedback and there's much better knowledge on S&C too. Yes, the ball and club advancements have helped without question. However, it's so easy to access to key technology and knowledge now.

I'd imagine all the Ball OEMs will fight and lobby this into purgatory for a while. I doubt they want to re-tool their R&D efforts and change materials/characteristics. They've made long term investments and there's too much on the line for them. Not to mention trying to redact their longer low-spinning drives, workable irons and short-game zip spiel for each ball. Eh actually sorry lads it's now shorter and drops like a stone 😂.

If equipment or balls don't change and they want to punish big drivers/CHS you can only look at the courses. Narrow the fairways, lengthen the rough, add more bunkers or change layout. The first two happen for US Opens but changing layouts would get pushback from courses/clubs due to cost.

It's a tough one to solve but I don't see the potential nerfed balls being implemented for 2026. The conundrum of how to ensure amateurs and pros all use the same rules plus gear is also part of it. Though largely they only want to punish big hitters who are essentially 1% of amateurs or tour pros.

monkeybutter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120360522#Comment_120360522

currently it is only for pros, that might change

if you at 50plus are driving par 4s then fair play to you, how many plus 50s do you think are doing that, it would be exceptional

how long are these par 4s, at what point do you think you jumped up in distance

Infoseeker1975

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120361347#Comment_120361347

Not quite at 50 yet but only a few years off it. The par 4s are circa 310-330 yards so in summer conditions they are reachable, got custom fitted with the driver probably 5- years ago which made a big difference re length.

AyeGer

Rolling back the ball is only part of the solution imo. I think we will face this problem again in the future as more athletes come into the game due to the money. All it takes is a new generation Kyle Berkshire to come along with a decent overall game and take over. We should be incorporating far more dog legs that force longer 2nd shot and making courses trickier. As russman said above it’s a bit tedious to see someone hit a 9 iron into a Par 5. I’d far rather see them needing a decent 3 wood off the deck over a bit of danger.

I enjoy watching the LET and LPGA as they don’t overpower courses and have very impressive iron and short games.

FixdePitchmark

I didn't think it would be so divisive - good POD from NLU today - and after you hear the talk about it , it completely makes sense to prevent course lengthening any more.

For the sake of avoiding the argument - they would be better off making the change for everyone. If it is 15 yards for pros - it will realistically only be 10 or less for amateurs - who cares. The great WHS will sort us.

Also with modern design , materials . and aerodynamics - and to add to that the squared relationship of Drag and Energy - I'm surprised that they can't make the changes, so that they are more impactful for higher speed than for amateur speeds - meaning that 15 yards for higher speeds would be 3 or 4 for us - or even no loss for us.

Anyway - I know I can be delusional - and golfers are delusional - but I didn't see this aspect coming, of , I want to play the same ball as the top pro - a guy who would probably have a handicap of + 8 or more - swing well over 20 % faster - when you think about it - there was a time we all picked a ball to suit our game and speed.

Seen a piece with Justin Thomas giving out that there is no problem to be solved (that guy is a bit spoilt at best ) - someone posted a photo of the new tee box at Augusta - a place that can afford to do this.

They are doing the right thing - but it looks like there will be kick back. I'd love if one of the manufactures came out and said - we can do this , for the future of the game - for sustainability of the game - I'm not sure I'm ready to listen to any poor mouth from them - as they push the driver price to near 1000 euro - and the eye watering price of golf balls - they can take this one for the sport.

billy3sheets

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120358735#Comment_120358735

It would be a huge change for amateur golf if courses were effectively lengthened by 10% by such a ball change. It would effectively turn forward or society tees into the Championship tees and make the game way more difficult for the club golfer. I presume all slope ratings would be completely invalidated as a result too.

Assuming that 10% distance reduction would apply across all your clubs.

So, what might have been a good drive and a 7 iron would now require a good drive and maybe a 5 iron to compensate for the shorter length of both clubs.

That would be a very negative and unpopular impact I think.

GreeBo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120364002#Comment_120364002

Its a lot easier to move a tee forward than keep moving them back.

AyeGer

Even with the new balls the pros will still be blasting them miles further than we amateurs ever could. After a few months we wont even notice that JT or Rory are hitting their drives 20 yards less. They will still be among the longest hitters on tour at around 300 yards avg. But it will make the great courses more of a challenge for them, which is only a good thing.