You've been looking in the wrong direction, the dangers are coming from the Left - read OP

chopperbyrne

If a man says "I am a woman.", and in reply I say "I don't believe you are a woman.", that is in no way the same as saying "I don't believe that men who say they are women exist."

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120748270#Comment_120748270

The argument started with "all trans people", and even if you accept the premise of his argument, he's only talking about 14% of trans people.

But I don't accept his premise to begin with, because to disagree with someone's personal opinion is not the same as denying their existence. I have reservations about the student who identified as a cat, but I do not deny their existence. I simply happen to disagree with their personal opinion.

It's catastrophizing what is otherwise reasonable disagreement in public discourse.

grennscreener

I love the way behaviour that would in times past just get you branded as an arsehole is now being labeled as 'the left' or 'the right'.

Seems to me anyone seeking to politicise social challenges or frame it as some sort of binary 'them' and 'us' is someone who has got a really narrow, small minded and overly simplistic view of the world. Either that or they enjoy being able to play one side off against the other in order to gain some sort of power or ego inflation.

I think this has been the ultimate down side of the internet. Its given the folks who would normally have been shunned to mumble into their lonely pints sitting in the corner of the pub while every one just got on with life an artificial sense of importance or impression anyone other than people like them give a **** about what they think.

Life is about the middle ground. Any one who believes in 'the left' or 'the right' is a fringe internet loser whose candidates have consistently failed to achieve any real democratic success. Long may it continue.

Richard Dawkins has weighed in on the furore at the school.

As a former professor of biology, he is absolutely right to be enraged at how the teacher spoke to that student -- which Dawkins refers to as "obnoxious bullying".

https://twitter.com/RichardDawkins/status/1671564063107579919

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120748203#Comment_120748203

Firstly: What’s the harm? Who is getting harmed if a student thinks of themselves as a cat?

Secondly, the law does not accept (at this moment in time) people identifying as cats. The law explicitly recognises trans individuals.

Thirdly, the students were not admonished for not recognising the girl as a cat. That’s just what the headline sold you. (As an intelligent man, why do you fall for this?) They were admonished for this:

The students disagreed, telling the teacher, “if you have a vagina you’re a girl and if you have a penis you’re a boy.”

The truth is that “if you have a penis, you can be a boy or a girl and if you have a vagina, you can be a boy or a girl”

If you think my statement is incorrect, how can you say you don’t deny the existence of trans people? Given that the definition of transgender is

: of, relating to, or being a person whose gender identity differs from the sex the person had or was identified as having at birthespecially  : of, relating to, or being a person whose gender identity is opposite the sex the person had or was identified as having at birth

If you do not believe the person is what they say they are, and they cannot be anything more than what gender they were assigned at birth, you are denying their existence.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120748444#Comment_120748444

Look at him another groomer panic merchant oh look he even paid $8/month for Twitter. Must be legit. ‘Shouldn’t be allowed near children’ what an appeal to emotion.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120748446#Comment_120748446

Happy to address the rest of your post but, just from a starting point so we both know where we stand: is it your position that what someone says about themselves and their identity is necessarily always true?

DarkJager21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120748446#Comment_120748446

Firstly, a school is an education setting. A child claiming to be a cat should not be encouraged, in fact such behaviour should warrant disciplinary procedures up to expulsion if it doesn't stop. School is for learning, not playing make believe or pretend with the kids.

Secondly, a boy/male has a penis, a woman/ has a vagina. This is biological fact. You cannot be a man with a vagina and vice versa. If you "believe" you are the opposite sex, that's on you - it's not grounded in any sort of reality. It's not denying anyone's existence, it's simply the truth. Feelings and shouting at reality will never change that fact.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120745824#Comment_120745824

Yeh, whatever lad. You think what you want to think.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120748474#Comment_120748474

If you’re about to suggest that it isn’t then what’s the point of asking another user where they stand, if despite what they tell you it might not be necessarily always true.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120748475#Comment_120748475

Expulsion? Really?

Secondly, a boy/male has a penis, a woman/ has a vagina. This is biological fact. You cannot be a man with a vagina and vice versa.

literally possible though. There are a whole host of intersex conditions. Why did you use boy in one case and woman in the other

DarkJager21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120748491#Comment_120748491

Yeah why not? As I said a school is a learning facility, not a play centre - allowing children to fantasise and play make believe is to the detriment of the other students. Same way if some student was continually interrupting class they'd be dealt with, this behaviour is no different.

And you know what I meant, don't get hung up on a typo. Boy/Male, Girl/Female.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120748302#Comment_120748302

It's that and the proliferation of cheap American style "politics". The kind of silly team A and team B nonsense for 5 year olds that passes for political thinking over there, puffed up by ridiculous stories that are held up by a "side" as evidence of a widespread...ahem..."concern", which would have passed everyone by a couple of decades ago and nobody would be any the wiser.

Take this farcical effort at a "story" in the New York Post. A non issue that nobody will even remember in a couple of weeks held up as a "danger". It's an absolute load of bollocks.

Jesus, when I was a kid, teachers used beat the crap out of us. I had a duster thrown at me for talking in class once. Missed my head by half an inch and clattered off the wall. Thankfully that kind of behaviour has been stamped out of schools today.

If a kid being told a certain viewpoint is "despicable" is the worst they have to worry about, then I think we can all sleep safe and sound in our beds at night.

Fuck sake, talk about snowflake generation. 🙄

markodaly

A bunch of far-left loons tried to shut down a democratic debate on Irish Security and Foreign policy.

No one elected them, yet they tried to shut down this forum.

People should call out far right and far left loons with equal gusto.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120748474#Comment_120748474

When it comes to announcing their gender, yes. Now, please answer the question.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120748475#Comment_120748475

Firstly, not all schools are the same, thankfully. There are a rare few that actually teach through drama. I know one history teacher who teaches history through improvisation.

But again, no one can answer me where is the harm in a student pretending to be a cat. You know they’ll grow out of it. You strike me as the type of person that doesn’t like students dying their hair. Very droll.

Secondly, if you are introduced to somebody you have been told previously was born male, but she introduces herself as a woman, you would be denying her existence as a trans woman if you did anything but referred to her as her/she. Likewise with trans men.

That is simply the truth. You go along with it, or deny their existence as a transgender. There’s no grey area here.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120748622#Comment_120748622

The prevailing logic here from "the left" is that any negative things that could be attributed to the left either currently or in a historical context is likely actually the work of "the right" and has been underhandedly attributed to the left in an attempt to discredit them. For example the Soviet Union was actually a far right fascist invention. Common sense doesn't exist in this space.

I've been banging the drum of calling out the right and the left equally for a long time now, somehow I've been branded as part of "the right" or "the far right".

Thankfully in Ireland we don't have a huge number of far right loons so they're easy to monitor, unfortunately we're bursting at the seems with far left loons and they're even sitting in the Dail as we speak, spouting nonsense at will.

DarkJager21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120748836#Comment_120748836

Again the harm is to the other students having to be disrupted by a fellow pupil claiming to be a cat. It's ridiculous. Would a workplace tolerate it? Highly unlikely seeing as it's not the time or place to be playing make believe, same as a school.

And as for "going along" with it, I'm an adult man and I decide what I believe in and don't. I'm not going to play along with anybody's personal delusions just to placate their "feelings".

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120748280#Comment_120748280

You are saying, “I don’t believe you exist as a transwoman”

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120748863#Comment_120748863

There is no harm to students. We all had annoying classmates. It’s part of growing up and maturing, as is recognising we are not all the same and how do we handle people that are different from us?

Im pretty certain you’re implying that transgender people don’t exist and they’re just making it up.

@[Deleted User] remember when you said no one is saying transgender don’t exist? I found one!

DarkJager21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120748887#Comment_120748887

There's a difference between an annoying classmate and one that is completely off the deep end pretending to be a cat and being forced to acknowledge them as such.

And I'm pretty sure you are implying that transgender people and what they perceive themselves to be completely trumps anyone's personal beliefs about what they are or are not. Do transgender people exist? Yeah they do. Am I going to acknowledge or deceive myself that a man claiming to be a woman is an actual female? No I am not.

francois

Analysis of the "cat" issue

https://bylinetimes.com/2023/06/22/dead-cats-and-transphobic-lies/

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120748989#Comment_120748989

You post a link to a partisan site and their source says the issue of a child identifying as a cat didn't happen and we should appropriate that at face value?

If this was the case I'd assume the issue of the cat element of the story being false would have been addressed publicly by the school or somebody related to this situation. The teacher surely would have corrected them in the recording if it wasn't relevant.

If a piece similar in tone was posted here supporting the opposite side of the argument it would be torn apart in painstaking detail but when the shoe is on the other foot we should just accept it?

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120748940#Comment_120748940

I am beyond implying it, I have stated it.

I have non binary friends and transgender friends.

I will always stick up for them 100%.

That girl who thinks she is a cat is doing no lasting harm to anyone at all, and there is slim to none chance that you can convince me otherwise, but I’d love to see you try.

Besides, the world is a much more interesting place because of all the “freaks” in it.

You can either acknowledge or believe a trans woman is a woman, or you can deny the existence of transgender people. There is no grey area. You either believe they are what they are, or you believe they’re having some sort of delusion.

Unless there’s something else you can offer to make me understand your position, I will assume that you accept transgender exist, but you’re just too damn rude to acknowledge them.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120748804#Comment_120748804

With respect, that wasn't the question I asked.

If you reject the student's claim to self-ID as a cat, there must be some independent criteria by which you can assess which claims are true and which self-ID claims are false.

At present, it seems that you have one rule for one group and one rule for other self-ID groups.

That inconsistency was the problem I was trying to highlight.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120748446#Comment_120748446

It's not a question of harm. It's a question of truth.

Second, you mention laws and so on, but that's not relevant. People have had self-identification beliefs long before any laws existed on the matter. Or are you suggesting that if laws were on the statute books, we should all similarly act as if self-ID as an animal is a legitimate position? There has to be some form of consistency here.

If I question that student's claim, believing their cat self-identification to be self-discrediting and utterly absurd, am I "denying the existence" of that person?

People can believe whatever they wish about themselves. I have no issue with that. My problem is when people demand that I believe whatever they believe. In the same way that I have no problem if someone wants to be a Jehovah's Witness, but I very much have a problem if they come to my door and demand that I believe their personal beliefs.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120748989#Comment_120748989

Well now.

well now.

imagine right wing papers not doing their research properly.

what say you @[Deleted User] ?

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120749189#Comment_120749189

But if someone comes up to says, “I’m a Jehovahs Witness”

Do you have the right to say, “No you’re not.”?

You may have the right, but I think you would agree it would be extremely rude and disrespectful to that person.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120749198#Comment_120749198

I listened to the audio myself, and the students do make reference to an animal (either cat or cow). But for the purposes of this discussion, the actual animal is not relevant. It's the principle of what's being discussed. We already have had cases in Australia and elsewhere of student's identifying as animals and school authorities and teachers treating those students the way they demand to be treated (i.e. remaining non-verbal in class).

Moreover, the audio makes clear the bullying attitude the teacher had toward the student -- for saying next to nothing wrong, as we have already been discussing up to this point.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120749217#Comment_120749217

I have a right to disagree with their personal beliefs, and if I do, I'm not denying their existence in the process.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120749198#Comment_120749198

Is this really the smoking gun you feel it is?

There's zero evidence to support what's written in that article. Just "trust us".