You've been looking in the wrong direction, the dangers are coming from the Left - read OP

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120575849#Comment_120575849

Correct. In other countries the far-right might have a chance of getting into power, but not here.

Whereas the far-left are already in the Dail, Seanad, and Council chambers.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120575849#Comment_120575849

I'm looking at America, because that's where a lot of this right/left divide is being imported from

I couldn't disagree more where you say that opinions contrary to mine shouldn't be allowed to be expressed. Maybe you can light the way and show me where I have said that, or led you to believe that?

I think, in Ireland we have been controlled long enough by the right/centre right for long enough. Be it FF/FG/The Church. I think it's time for a change. You say the policies of the left will completely destabilise the country, I say it already is. Over 10,000 homeless and a crippled healthcare system are not signs of a stable country.

Anecdotally, I am the last of my friends to not emigrate. I have a family here, and I love Ireland for all its faults. That scale of emigration is also not a sign of a stable country.

Your last paragraph is correct. For example, nothing will convince me I shouldn't support my trans friends.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120575849#Comment_120575849

There's also the geopolitical dimension, which up to now hasn't been discussed.

For instance; the two far-left MEPs - in Clare Daly and Mick Wallace - openly condemn the West for supporting Ukraine; effectively acting as stooges for Putin's genocidal war. An outrageous position for them to adopt. Then there's Richard Boyd-Barrett and Paul Murphy, both of whom routinely ventilate anti-Western sentiment, using much softer language for certain autocratic regimes around the world.

This is nothing new either.

The modern far-left have always been against the West and the United States, and Ukraine would be in very different shape today - a far worse shape - if most Western countries adopted the kind of stance that Daly, Wallace, and others, pollute discourse with. Putin would be on the rampage through many other countries. And that's without even mentioning how the far-left has traditionally been toxified by racist anti-Semitism and opposition to the very existence of Israel. Look at what happened the Labour Party under Corbyn, to take one of many possible examples.

So even when you leave culture politics to one side, there's very real geopolitical risks from the views that many on the far-left hold today.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120575975#Comment_120575975

I don't follow.

So you're equating opposing the Ukraine war as being left wing?

But you defend Tucker Carlson staunchly and he's definitely not left wing: you defended his criticism of the Ukraine war as being highly principled or when you couldn't convincingly do that, 'he's just pretending':

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120545816#Comment_120545816

In the Tucker thread you don't mention it is an "outrageous position" you spend a lot of time being an apologist for him and his open condemnation of the West for supporting Ukraine? 😶

So are you suggesting Tucker Carlson is "The modern far-left?"

Look to your own inconsistencies.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120576001#Comment_120576001

I don't support Tucker Carlson's view on Ukraine.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120576005#Comment_120576005

Why did you spend a day and a half defending him to the hilt then? 😶

You're also still not clarifying the apparent inconsistency with tucker carlson condemning the west supporting ukraine, and you stating that was a position exclusively held by the far left (that holding that view labels you as far left)?

nachouser

So the Op should ask for the thread title to be edited to "far-left", yeah?

Real bang of "what have the romans ever done for us?" from this thread.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120576020#Comment_120576020

Real bang of "what have the romans ever done for us?" from this thread.

I love Life of Brian, it's Monty Python's finest piece of work by far, but I don't follow?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120576020#Comment_120576020

I don't think there's any danger from the moderate left or left of centre; in the same way there's very little danger coming from the right of centre, or much of the moderate right. In fact, many on the moderate left and left of centre largely agree with the kind of concerns I've raised.

The danger will always come from the extremes of both sides of the political spectrum, and calling both extremes out is important.

We can't be half against extremism and claim to be moderates at the same time.

I'm against both far-left and far-right extremism. It seems I'm in the minority, though.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120576037#Comment_120576037

I'm against both far-left and far-right extremism. It seems I'm in the minority, though.

Why aren't you bumping the "dangers coming from the right" thread then ever?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120576051#Comment_120576051

Precisely because I largely agree with the concerns about the far-right.

I'm not hearing nearly enough concerns about far-left extremism, though. You'd almost get the impression from this thread that far-left extremism is a contradiction in terms; that it could never exist.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120576037#Comment_120576037

The problem with your post is that there is A LOT of danger coming from the centre right. Much more than the centre left.

Centre right economic policies that favour tax breaks for the wealthy.

Centre right economic policies that try to limit medical assistance to poor people.

Centre right social policies that limit immigration (of dark skinned people)

Centre right social policies that want to punish drug abusers.

All these are far more dangerous than

Centre left economic policies that favour higher tax rates for the wealthy.

Centre left economic policies that want to include more people in need of medical assistance.

Centre left social policies on climate change

Etc.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120576060#Comment_120576060

Precisely because I largely agree with the concerns about the far-right.

I mean, why are you not bumping it with new information at least as fervently as you push recycled information (about drag queens and incidents already exhaustively discussed on this thread) in this thread? Sorry if this is getting too off topic but it seems relevant when 1 thread is a mirror of the other, and you claim to hold both dangerous avenues in allegedly equal regard but that's not matched by your posting behavior on the pair of threads.

nachouser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120576025#Comment_120576025

A thread decrying "the left" when pretty much every socially inclusive policy that exists on the planet came from someone who was left-leaning, politically.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120576080#Comment_120576080

Do you believe the far-left have ever gone too far?

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120576120#Comment_120576120

Extremists always go too far. Left too. I thought I already QED'd this when I pointed out a reminder that I posted a trans shooter thread less than 2 weeks ago, I don't throw up a deliberate blind spot for extremism because it came from the left. Not the same thing as both-sideisms usually argued, eg. "2020 riots == Capitol insurrection" (fallible notion), but it's still straight and easy to condemn violence, arson, murder, etc. and if the far left gets as 'fasch' as the right currently is especially in the US because of Trumpism, or even crazy and out of touch, we'll be here to discuss that, monitor it, condemn it. Nobody on the forum escaped for example, learning about the CHAZ in WA. Lord of the flies and wackadoodle, condemnable and resulted in deaths -- still not as devastating a threat to the country as the insurrection attempt was, by a decent measure CHAZ was never in range of overthrowing any democracy.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120574213#Comment_120574213

She spoke to BBC.... Yeah she hasnt been cancelled 🤣

Burty330

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120576138#Comment_120576138

The riots including the week long seizure of downtown chicago were far worse than jan 6th and that's a proven fact based on the death count and the billions of dollars cost to the state and public businesses / property.

Overheal

based on the death count and the billions of dollars cost to the state and public businesses / property.

Sure, with that caveat.

I'm not sure where you would have been to calculate the damages if the democracy had been overthrown and the peaceful transition of power had been done away with violence.

The 2020 riots were awful and I made sure to absorb several nights of live footage to take it in. With that said, I never for a moment in the summer of 2020 had to worry if our national security, our nuclear deterrent was ever for a moment compromised, like I had a pit in my stomach we'd maybe start seeing senators the far right hate passionately and virulently like Bernie Sanders, hung off the balcony while the military scrambled to figure out who the **** is still really in charge.

In 2016, a former Marine (you're never a 'former' marine, according to a marine), a lead manufacturing engineer, in response to my bernie magnet on my car he deadly seriously spoke to me of his conviction that if he ever saw Sanders in the flesh he would "put a bullet between his eyes," and it wasn't just rhetoric as far as I could probe him, he doubled down on every challenge to this bizarre train of thought and felt that it was his duty as a marine to see the 'socialist' as a 'danger from within.'

Those were different times though, even in 2016 I still never slept on it and thought anyone could be so deadly crazy, it was my first internship I have 3 bosses who do I report it to etc... I think about that guy a lot. Especially in the context of January 6. In hindsight I regret not taking every escalation to what he was saying. At least I didn't recognize him in any of the 'still wanted' galleria from the FBI. I cannot prove any of this so take it with as much salt to taste.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120575902#Comment_120575902

The policies of the left you asked about can be boiled down to one proposal by Sinn Fein that corporation tax be raised significantly.

On a moral level I agree with making greedy corporations accountable and making them pay their fair share of tax.

On a more pragmatic level I'm reminded that Ireland is wholy reliant on direct foreign investment and Ireland prior to that was a terrible place to live for multiple reasons all of them exacerbated by the overriding poverty of the country.

We have to toe the line with multinational corporations unfortunately, post brexit Britain will welcome with open arms any and all companies that would invariably flee an Ireland in the grips of a Sinn Fein People Before Profit et al coalition.

And what needs to be realised is that once these companies go they aren't coming back.

You're correct in saying the FFG crowd have made s dogs dinner of the housing situation and the health service etc but try sorting those problems with unemployment levels beyond the worst of the financial crisis in 2009 being an indefinite reality for Ireland.

Lest we forget this horrible right wing government and it's predecessors have introduced same sex marriage, repealed the eight ammendment of the constitution and issued an open invitation to asylum seekers around the globe to come to Ireland.

The idea that it's time to give the left "a go" is not reasonable once you examine what the left are saying. And the narrative that FFG are somehow far right (see Gino Kennys recent manifesto) is absolutely nonsensical.

If there were sensible propositions being made by the left I'd consider voting for left wing candidates but the repercussions of course hat they're proposing could absolutely scuttle this country for generations to come.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120576088#Comment_120576088

Who was it that campaigned for the abolition of slavery in the United Kingdom?

I'm certain you know the answer.

thegame983

The left used to be fun. Now they're just a bunch of clowns who think men should be allowed play women's tennis.

nachouser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120576968#Comment_120576968

Not remotely related to my point. Left-leaning policies have given rise to everything that is good about the world. Or you'd be working 90 hours a week for 1 cent an hour. But sure you know this and you're just angry or deflecting. Anyway, good luck.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120577237#Comment_120577237

The left also gave us the Gulag, working until you die for nothing.

If these acts of altruism you claim are so plentiful I'm sure you can cite at least one example.

Overheal

I'm guessing it wasn't the social conservatives in the UK that abolished slavery.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120577337#Comment_120577337

The Victorian era was one of the most socially conservative eras in British history.

William Wilberforce who campaigned for 20 years to outlaw slavery also campaigned for the Society of the Suppression of Vice.

Abolition of slavery and 19th century social conservatism both sprang from the same source of evangelical Christian zeal.

nullzero

Social conservatives (and indeed Tory party members including serving prime minister Will Pitt the younger) and evangelical Christians (notably the wonderfully named William Wilberforce) were some the leading campaigners for the abolition of slavery in the UK.

This was notably at a time where neither the Liberal Party nor the Labour Party even existed.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120577392#Comment_120577392

Still rather progressive of him to see that slavery was that wrong though, that rubbed against his otherwise political conservatism?

"His underlying conservatism led him to support politically and socially controversial legislation, which resulted in criticism that he was ignoring injustices at home while campaigning for the enslaved abroad." (Wikipedia)

nachouser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120577326#Comment_120577326

Nope, that wasn't anything to do with left-leaning. You're referring to communism. I'm not. As to your other request, scroll up.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120577409#Comment_120577409

I don't know who wrote that Wikipedia entry but imo its written in an extremely deceptive way.

At that time, Victorian social conservatives were righting injustices and that's what was controversial about them. In the 18th century and up until around 1810 or so you could be stepping over child prostitutes huddled sleeping in lanes on your drunken wander home from the ale-house at 3am.

A person who brings in legislation to change that is going to be controversial because it involved an incredibly meddlesome moralised re-organisation of all of society on broadly Christian lines, and included making provisions for the poor and preaching to them.

He may have been criticised by fellow social conservatives for not doing enough! That's the only way to make the passage coherent.

A 21st century reader with no knowledge of the era is probably going to be confused by the word "controversy" in this context and assume since controversy=bad and is here conflated with "ignoring injustices" Wilberforce must be at fault for neglecting poor people - practically the opposite of the truth.