"Ammunition Factory"

tonysopprano

Report in thejournal this evening (NOTE: investigation started by gardai after seeing post on boards)

https://www.thejournal.ie/gun-enthusiast-with-ammunition-factory-avoids-jail-5982771-Jan2023/

Cass

It is no secret that An Gardai monitor Boards.ie, we have been told this outright in the past. As the single largest site for all discussions concerning shooting sports and the sale of shooting equipment it only makes sense for them to do so.

We have also said, and it's in the site/forum rules, that there is to be no discussion of illegality and any items deemed illegal (even stuff people think may be ok) will not be permitted or tolerated.

It is for this reason we never allow the sale of reloading components. By that I mean bullets, propellant and primers among other items not to mention the reason why the for sale section is monitored so closely.

Thankfully we can say that no such items have ever been sold on the site and so I'm at a loss to understand how the site was in anyway linked to this case barring, perhaps, the fact that the person involved used the site for discussions and the sale of legal goods. The article even cites AGS checking hundreds of pages of items, but no mention of anything being found as there is nothing to be found.

As has been pointed out many times in the past, bullets would technically be covered by your license, and we would review the sale of the miniscule amount of adverts on a case by case basis, but propellant and primers are NOT.

The equipment used in reloading is not subject to licensing and therefore does not fall foul of any legislation however, and this warning has been issued on the site before, it's a hard case to explain why you have everything you need to reload (bar the propellant and primers) if you don't reload.

I won't comment on the case, and frankly no one else will be either (technical contempt of court), but the site is monitored closely for not only prohibited items but fake items.

Again it's all in the rules and anyone caught purposefully breaking them will find their access to the site, removed.

Just for the record any comments and or statements above are mine and mine alone and DO NOT represent any official, or otherwise, position of Boards.ie.

Ubbquittious

Fair play to you Cass for keeping the forum clean down through the years, there were times when I thought you were being paranoid for your hard-line stance against any mention of illegal stuff but it's very obvious now that there's plenty of lurkers in here prowling for ammunition 😆 to vilify us with.

cosieman

Shame its not legal here it even legal up north the gunshop in finglas applied for permission to reload and got turned down.

Cass

It is legal here, under license from the DoJ, just the conditions that now have to be met are so extreme as to make it financially impracticable.

Grizzly 45

The article states that the accused was selling ammo to fellow shooters. " That he had extensive contacts in the gun-owning community and was planning to sell to those parties to use in a lawful way." That makes this story stink for me.

Question. Would any of you buy hand-loaded ammo from an unknown source? Even if it is your best mate and not some bloke in your club who is flogging off some homebrewed rounds out in the carpark?

While an extreme example, ask Kentucky Ballistics on YT about what happens when you buy ammo from an unknown/dodgy source on the internet.In his case, 50 Cal BMG SLAP rounds had been hot-loaded with pistol powder!

Were reloading ever to become common here that would be my biggest fear. Someone who decides to make a quick buck, with zero clue starts reloading for those too cheap to buy ammo or wants a special load for their gun with potentially deadly consequences.

NEVER use anyone else's reloaded ammo should be another rule of gun safety.

cosieman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120180506#Comment_120180506

https://www.reddit.com/r/shittyreloading/top/?t=all

Quantum Erasure

not a regular of the forum, but this struck me as amusing

 Judge Nolan said: “This court is not often surprised..."

otmmyboy2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120180506#Comment_120180506

Indeed, hence why in a lot of countries where you can reload legally you cannot sell reloaded rounds without being a licenced ammunition manufacturer(ie re-manufactured rounds vs reloaded by an individual rounds).

Makes a lot of sense when you see the amount of issues folks have with dodgy reloads.

garrettod

I can't see how anyone with a licence would be buying from a stranger, or even a fellow club member etc. Defies belief, it really does....

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120179306#Comment_120179306

I've never seen illegal items for sale. But FWIW, the article only refers to a post. He may well have referenced what he was doing. Perhaps elsewhere on here. I wonder if there is a way to find posts are remove them.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120179677#Comment_120179677

It's hardly vilifying when the guy was breaking the law. He got very lucky imo, must have really had some good evidence to prove he wasn't selling to illegal users.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120180506#Comment_120180506

Completely agree. I've seen that video. You must have shared it. Scary stuff. Buying random 50cals off the internet. Crazy.

I actually share your concerns about reloading. If it ever become common, how does a first timer do so safely, how do you stop the idiot factor?

Grizzly 45

Completely agree. I've seen that video. You must have shared it. Scary stuff. Buying random 50cals off the internet. Crazy.

For those who haven't seen this and the recreation of what happened follow up video

https://youtu.be/1449kJKxlMQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsw70VfSFFw

Grizzly 45

I actually share your concerns about reloading. If it ever becomes common, how does a first-timer do so safely, how do you stop the idiot factor?

No matter what you do, Nature will always create a better idiot.

Good questions about what to do with newbies. I have had the experience of the German system,which is the only country in the EU that licenses reloading ammo on an individual basis, and TBH it is geared 90% to the legislation of designations of UN and EU classifications, transporting and safe storage requirements than actual reloading of ammo. That's literally about a morning of a weekend course on how to safely load a rifle, pistol and shotgun shell, and how to stuff your muzzleloader, and hand-held "Boeller"[A BP hand cannon used to make a loud noise at festivities in Germany...It's a German thing!]

The actual reloading process can learn from many decent YT videos these days, and you can go and be made to do a hands-on course. But that doesn't make you a 100% safe person. Same as your driving license doesn't assure that you will never have or cause a car wreck. So it will come down to a matter of trust of saying Joe Bloggs was tested and he knows all about the categories of powders and how to safely transport them and store them, and oh yeah, he knows how to load a round safely...More or less...After that...

Storage goes by how much powder you are entitled to have, and where you live town and federal state.IOW You won't be reloading any ammo in a highrise apartment in downtown Munich. But have at it, if your Jagd haus is out in the middle of the forest, and you have the required powder safe installed.

So between Germany and Ireland's extremes on this topic, I'd be pretty sure we could find a happy medium. And YES it is illegal to sell,or even give people hand-loaded ammo. it's for personal use only.

Do people reload a lot to save money? Nope! They will tell you straight off, by the time you have done the course, installed all the approved powder safe/bunkers, for all the local councils' permissions, bought all the kit etc. You will have bought a pallet of factory fresh ammo at discount over there. No one reloads shotgun shells or a few pistol rounds in common cals as it isn't economic. It's mostly lads either reloading for obscure or hard-to-get calibres, setting up custom performance loads for their particular rifle or F class and long-range boys.

smmember20

[MODERATOR SNIP]:

Watched this debate unfold with incredulity, "reloading produces, untraceable ammunition" emotive scaremongering with the desired effect, quite a common practice in all of the cases I have seen historically taken by AGS under the firearms legislation when dealing with a lawfully compliant individual.

Quote from the Journal

"Gavin Blanchfield (40) was given a six-year suspended sentence today after “good police work” revealed he had been “selling untraceable ammunition to third parties” on the internet."

I hope I am not breaking any rules of the forum by comparing completed cases, one can be only in contempt if commenting on a running case.!

Ordered forfeiture and destruction of reloading equipment, which we all know is not illegal to possess!

Feisar

Harsh but not out of line with how our sport is viewed in this country. Despite some of the emotive language it's clear the the Garda was of the opinion that this was an enthusiast who got carried away with himself.

Cass

@smmember20

I edited your advert as you have breached my warning above about technical contempt of court.

Discussing an ongoing case is sub justice but discussing a finished case in an overly harsh or critical manner (usually about the justice or process) is technical contempt of court, hence the reason I want no discussion on the outcome of case itself.

judestynes

"The actual reloading process can learn from many decent YT videos these days"

Not anymore unfortunately, new YT rules prohibits even inserting a mag into a firearm. I just stick to the content creators I like and follow them on patreon.

Feisar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120196550#Comment_120196550

I download vids I find particularly useful, ya never know when it might disappear.

smmember20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120195934#Comment_120195934

Ah OK thank you for the clarification, I was unsure of the position, hence the cautious statement, however very tough to stay stum when something has been so over the top, speaking in general terms of course

Ubbquittious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120190515#Comment_120190515

I am not really concerned about yer man in particular but if the mods weren't as on the ball as they are we could have been in right sh1t

Heckler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120196550#Comment_120196550

Huh ?

I follow plenty of shooters content on YT and theres no issue with inserting mags and shooting. Where are are you getting this from ?

Non Playable Character

https://   support.google.com/youtube/answer/7667605?hl=en

Can't post complete link, just get rid of space above.

"Don’t post content on YouTube if the purpose is to do one or more of the following:

• Sell firearms or certain firearms accessories through direct sales (e.g. private sales by individuals) or links to sites that sell these items. These accessories may include:
  • Accessories that enable a firearm to simulate automatic fire,
  • Accessories that convert a firearm to automatic fire, such as: bump stocks, gatling triggers, drop-in auto sears, or conversion kits,
  • High capacity magazines or belts carrying more than 30 rounds.
• Provide instructions on manufacturing any of the following:
  • Firearms,
  • Ammunition,
  • High capacity magazines,
  • Homemade silencers/suppressors,
  • Accessories that enable a firearm to simulate automatic fire,
  • Accessories that convert a firearm to automatic fire, such as: bump stocks, gatling triggers, drop-in auto sears, or conversion kits
• Provides instructions on how to install the above-mentioned accessories or modifications.
• Provide instructions on how to convert a firearm to automatic or simulated automatic firing capabilities.

Please note this is not a complete list."

Relevant bits in bold.

otmmyboy2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120233954#Comment_120233954

If you've followed any of the channels that comment on firearm politics, even irregularly, you'll see that many channels have gotten strikes and some have been removed in the lead up to shot show because of this new police, which includes inserting normal capacity magazines, attaching suppressors to firearms, etc.

judestynes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120233954#Comment_120233954

From the you tubers them selves. Military Arms Channel and Forgotten Weapons, In Range have all mentioned it.

Grizzly 45

Like Fake book ,everyone worth watching is moving over to Odysee ,Lbry,etc,who don't have those censorious and fascist attitudes to firearms.

2011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120235044#Comment_120235044

Have a look at this 1 minute 25 seconds in, you will see the first of many mag changes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mw3_Yf6DnvM

Non Playable Character

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120238778#Comment_120238778

Just because someone puts up a new video that breaks their rules doesn't mean the rules aren't there or that the video isn't going to get taken down eventually.

otmmyboy2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120238778#Comment_120238778

Ahem:

-https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMW2GJLgQGA

-https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxWnmHrFW3Y

-https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10hJjyDhaas&ab_channel=MrBigKid

-https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ugiMHPc138

-https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lhUkdwaVeE&ab_channel=KGBoomBoom

-https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gI5kkb6nMIs

-https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmKHa61z10Y&ab_channel=Hegshot87

-https://www.youtube.com/shorts/ubtVs_rD7cI

-https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqjxmqQuaZs

A lot of guntuber channels have made videos explaining why they have gotten strikes before shot show, and the reinterpretation of the rules, which now means if a video is reviewed and shows the insertion of a standard capacity magazine, threading on a suppressor, etc, you get a channel strike per action.

So if you did a video of reloading your firearm with a standard magazine 3 times, that is 3 strikes on your channel, in a single video.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120238877#Comment_120238877

And also this 👆️👆️👆️

Hence why a lot of channels are now blurring out the normal things that youtube now deems to be offensive, or editing those out of their videos entirely.

And the uptick in channels being created on utreon and similar to try and move audiences away from youtube.

2011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120240127#Comment_120240127

I didn’t say you were wrong, my point is that it is routinely ignored by so many. The video I linked to is by an individual that has multiple magazine changes in all of his videos on his channel.

otmmyboy2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120240219#Comment_120240219

I think you are missing the salient point where it is not any magazine change that is the issue, it is standard capacity magazine changes which are the issue(ie 30 rounds and over), as specified here:

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120234610#Comment_120234610

2011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120240287#Comment_120240287

Ok, I see your point, my bad.

I got confused by post number 23. It seems to imply that all magazines were an issue: "If you've followed any of the channels that comment on firearm politics, even irregularly, you'll see that many channels have gotten strikes and some have been removed in the lead up to shot show because of this new police, which includes inserting normal capacity magazines, attaching suppressors to firearms, etc."

otmmyboy2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120241126#Comment_120241126

I get it, normal there meaning relative, 10 for most rimfire rifles is pretty standard, 30 round mags are standard for AR, AK, VZ58, nearly every submachinegun is 30 or 32, the Calico, etc

I have zero doubt that the 30 rounds and over definition of "high capacity" will shift downwards also, but there it is.

Grizzly 45

HISTORICAL FUN FACT!!! Did you know that the reduced mag capacity idea came from a prominent gun manufacturer? We can thank William "Bill" Ruger Sr for this nonsense!

Ruger's letter to Congress On March 30, 1989

The best way to address the firepower concern is therefore not to try to outlaw or license many millions of older and perfectly legitimate firearms (which would be a licensing effort of staggering proportions) but to prohibit the possession of high-capacity magazines. By a simple, complete and unequivocal ban on large-capacity magazines, all the difficulty of defining 'assault rifle' and 'semi-automatic rifles' is eliminated. The large capacity magazine itself, separate or attached to the firearm, becomes the prohibited item. A single amendment to Federal firearms laws could effectively implement these objectives.

Not that this worked in the US crime control bill, where Mr Klintoon banned both "assault rifles" and high-capacity magazines in 1994. Thankfully grandfathered by George Dubya a decade later, as it did precisely nothing to stop gun crime.

Ruger more than likely did this so his cash cow the Mini14 wouldn't be banned in any assault rifle ban either. Just one to think on if we hear that our own organisations in Ireland or all over are doing sellouts for whatever reason[s]. even gun makers will sell us out if it suits them.

judestynes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120246495#Comment_120246495

It was either reduce mag capacity or lose semi auto's in the States entirely.

Grizzly 45

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120247218#Comment_120247218

Was never going to happen,even back then before the AR15 became even more popular and in common usage,which now makes it a totally protected species under US law.If it was a sop to the anti-gun crowd it backfired...badly! As e seen in the crime control act where BOTh high capacity mags and "assault rifles" were banned for a decade.

Strange that even in states that restrict mag capacity like CA,NJ,etc. The mag capacity doesn't seem to stop these states exploding guncrime...It's almost as if criminals don't obey laws on mag capacity or anything else...

judestynes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120247908#Comment_120247908

Seriously lads, you all need to get it out of your heads that this is about gun crime. It isn't. If politicians actually wanted to reduce gun crime they'd do 1 of 2 things. 1. Legalize drugs. 2. Eliminate poverty. They've no interest in doing either of those 2 things .

Mag capacity limits are a reflection of how the pace of life has changed and it's changing faster than the establishment can keep up with and in places where firearms can be sourced far too easily tragedies are happening.

People like us know that reducing mag capacity won't make a blind bit of difference just as sticking security guards in schools hasn't made a difference. Ending this culture war nonsense so people aren't being radicalized and flipping their lids.. that will make a difference.

Anyway we're way off point. A bloke doing his mates a solid and reloading for them is the topic. In several conversations with several different people, reloading was on the table from AGS and refused by shooting representative bodies or individuals speaking for them. If we keep electing these numpties to represent us then we've only ourselves to blame.