Time for a zero refugee policy? - *Read OP for mod warnings and threadbans - updated 11/5/24*

Bobtheman

While on the topic of housing the government proposal to persuade landlords to stay in the market by allowing them more right offs says it all. Washing machine etc

Shows how disconnected they are from the rental market. Landlords are leaving because of the uncertainty of legislation. Eviction bans appear and disappear. The residential tenancy board takes a year to settle disputes.

The tax on rental profits is 50%. That is a killer. The state takes a couple of hundred off rent each month and gives it to some tenants. Rather than lowering tax rates in exchange for some rent reduction.

You can't right off the Mortage and many landlords are still in negative equity.

The approach of a SF government won't help either.

Less and less rental properties

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120177206#Comment_120177206

Governments ( in the abstract) can’t choose to make everything fine and dandy if external events blindside even a sound plan, to listen to some you would think the Irish government opt to have a housing mess for sh1te and giggles and if they wanted, they could build enough for everyone including any number of Ukrainians or Georgians , only the naive and ideologues like Rory Hearne believe that

the government could of course admit we need to hit the pause button with regard asylum seekers, this “ international protection obligations “ cry by the NGO sector can be ignored, time people began asking if the Irish government answer primarily to the Irish voters or agenda pushing NGO parties?

people are fed up being condescended to

tinytobe

I would not be in favour of a complete zero refugee policy. I think that Ireland should be taking refugees, but the refugee policy should be tied to housing and whether we can accommodate them.

There is absolutely no point to bring in refugees but then not offering them or being able to offer them anything to stay, just containers and tents.

Run Forest Run

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120177206#Comment_120177206

Unfortunately, there is a point.

Our political class have been busy rolling out the welcome mat for every tom dick and harry who wants to come here, regardless of what value they might actually bring to our nation. And at great cost to the lives of our citizens.

The chances of these corrupt scoundrels doing a complete 180, and plugging up the leak in the short to medium term without massive pressure and backlash from the public, is next to zero. We still have planks like Eamon Ryan, who think we should be aiming for the same population density as the Netherlands - which would put us at around 45 million+ people... so these delusional fools actually see no problem with flooding our country with unsustainable numbers of people. If we don't stand up to these people, then we'll all be living in their dystopian nightmare vision of the future!

If we don't make Ireland an unattractive place for illegal immigrants to come, then our nation will be completely unrecognisable in a very short space of time. That's the stark reality we are facing unfortunately. We can't rely on our so-called "leaders" to do the sensible thing, so we'll just have to force their hand through more aggressive tactics.

HerrKuehn

One thing that I think is clear is that Irish people do not like to see the system taken advantage of or cheated. I would argue this is the reason why we had such a large majority in favour of changing citizenship rules in the referendum. In the early 2000's we had women arriving and having babies shortly after, thus allowing them to stay (so called anchor babies).

We also saw the Pamela Izevbhekai case where she was claiming a daughter who didn't exist died of FGM. There was a lot of support for her at the time from the media, the Kitty Holland/Sorcha Pollack types. More recently we had the case of Donna Vuma, who arrived from SA on a fake passport and claimed asylum. Her linkedin showed she had been working in SA for years before coming here on fake passport. I think this is cheating and taking advantage of the system. In my opinion, if she was in SA for years, in employment, she really isn't in need of refuge (even if Ireland is objectively a better place to live than SA, it isn't about picking your favourite).

Given how expensive it is to provide the supports required, we should at least make sure that those availing of the support are actually entitled to it. We have a very poor record of deporting people who do not win approval. Airlines should be required to have a copy of any ID that was used to board a plane and not allow people on without it. This would get rid of the chancers destroying their documentation on the flight.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120177692#Comment_120177692

I agree completely with the above, no to cheats but also no to zero refugee policy. but I think throughout history there have been peoples that have to flee from countries to escape persecution like the Jews before WW2, Bosnians in Yugoslav civil war, people fleeing Taliban nowadays etc. We are lucky to be born in a develop stable country like Ireland I see no problem in offering a minimum level of charity to those less fortunate.

pauly58

I saw on a placard a woman was holding saying " Room for all at East Wall " as The Times said there were 50 million in Africa looking to come to Europe, perhaps this lady would like them all to come here.

I wouldn't like to see a halt to all genuine refugees, but where is genuine ? I would say for a start, women & children only from Eastern Ukraine & women from Afghanistan, definitely no Algerians of Georgians for example.

This is what happens when there is no plan at all from our Government. I have every sympathy with people from Zimbabwe, but Ireland is too small to be able to solve the world's problems.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120177850#Comment_120177850

Open borders is a valid position, supported by the likes of Kitty Holland. The thing is you can either have a strong social safety net or open borders, you can't have both. To suggest otherwise is either extremely naive or dishonest. I would be inclined to think the media are dishonest with respect to this rather than naive. I also think most people would prefer to have the social safety net rather than open borders.

maccored

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120177299#Comment_120177299

the government we currently have made agreements about refugees that it couldnt support. ignore that though, right?

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120177850#Comment_120177850

Western Ukraine is not safe - Kyiv and Lviv are regularly hit by missiles and there are frequent power cuts as the Russians keep targeting the energy grid. The capital very much represents a city under siege, with air raid sirens going off all the time. Schools in Kyiv are closed currently because of the frequent missile attacks and power shortages.

Sunny Disposition

The current government have made a pigs ear out of the situation.

Unfortunately we had very little capacity when war broke out in Ukraine, but we kind of ignored that issue and allowed as many people who wanted to come here. Now we have people sleeping in tents, new arrivals going to be homeless and the failure to address issues around housing, health and provision of services has led to a drop in solidarity with those arriving.

A well-intentioned, very optimistic but poorly thought through laissez faire policy has been a disaster.

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120177996#Comment_120177996

What agreements?, Ireland operates under the same UN rules as other EU nations yet our refusal rate is 10% where as the EU average is 60% refusal rate

square that circle

TomTomTim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178052#Comment_120178052

 but we kind of ignored that issue and allowed as many people who wanted to come here.

Sensible people didn't, yet were called all sorts for daring to predict the obvious. Even without the war, we would have ended up where we are eventually, the war just accelerated the process.

Grassy Knoll

The way I see it is Ireland is one of the richest countries in the EU. Our prosperity is based off international trade and interaction across the globe. What does this look like on the ground some will say - try - full employment, jobs for any Irish person who wants to work here, better opportunities than any generation in the past and of course literally billions we cannot spend from corporation tax arising from multinationals based here.

Where I am going with this is we are a country that benefits massively from the EU and international order. As a result we have a responsibility to 'give something back' be it assisting folks suffering conflict and persecution in their own countries (sound familiar ?) or starvation, crisis etc. Some of this involves taking in some of these folks, in other cases providing financial assistance or in some areas military personnel in peacekeeping, training missions or peace enforcement in war torn areas. I feel we by and large are not afraid as a country to put our 'hand into our pocket' and this is something to be proud about. Our long standing approach of free-riding on international developments should not be taken for granted (defence & security, tax receipts etc). This is the realpolitik - we now have money and with that comes international obligations

Issues around housing are not immaterial, but also should not be used by far right elements to sow division or further their own ugly ends. For some of these folks the best we can offer is basic enough, I'm OK with that if that is our best given our current circumstances, as the alternative I presume for genuine refugees be they from Ukraine or elsewhere is presumably worse. Housing is a mess for a number of reasons, including the crash about a decade ago, but also some of those shouting the loudest are also objecting to planning permission which too has consequences. No doubt housing has a lot of complex problems, but these will be resolved in time (perhaps the risk is we will end up with too many)

We need to be very careful where the debate goes - by 'othering' some groups around this issue runs the risk of normalising this anti foreigner approach more widely - and once the lid comes off that jar it becomes very difficult to control the consequences - the Brexit in the UK is a clear example. From reading comments here it has already begun - usually begins with "I'm not a racist but ... ". When not housing it will be access to something else. What starts with refugees will spread to other folks living and working here ...

maccored

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178064#Comment_120178064

square that circle? are you telling me we were forced to take in refugees under the European Union Temporary Protection Directive without negotiation? Square that circle indeed. You do know your shapes, right?

bloopy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178052#Comment_120178052

What has happened was predictable and was predicted.

The problem was a not a poorly thought through policy, it was a sticking your fingers in your ears, ignoring potential downsides while calling people bigots policy.

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178181#Comment_120178181

Why is our refusal rate a sixth of the EU average ?

surely that directive you like waving about applies equally across EU states ?

maccored

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178349#Comment_120178349

why are you changing the point? as I said, we need a government that doesnt make promises it cant keep - regardless of your theory that they didnt make any agreements. besides, you are just making my point for me. Who's in charge of the country and in charge of making refusals? Isnt the government by any chance is it?

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178367#Comment_120178367

Why are you referring to EU directives with authority and in the next breath refusing to answer a question on the glaring divergence between EU states in terms of how it’s followed?

is France in breach of said directive?, they turn away 70% of AS applicants, we turn away 10%

maccored

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178381#Comment_120178381

what are you on about if you dont mind me asking. I said we have a government that made agreements they couldnt keep. you told me they made no agreements. I asked if they were forced to agree to take the number of refugees they agred to take in and then you go off on some waffle about other countires.

Do you agree or not that our government has a responsibility here or not? I say they do - they made agreements they couldnt keep. Was it to look like the EU good boy again? I dont know - but what I do know is the question of 'the glaring divergence between EU states in terms of how it’s followed' is a question Ive no interest in as it has no relevance to my statement.

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178404#Comment_120178404

Argue in good faith or stop replying to me , Ireland is part of the EU , we don’t make agreements in relation to asylum application policy independent of the EU

you’re repeating “ we have a government who made agreements “ is just sloganeering

maccored

wasting my time you are. you dont seem to wish to accept that our government made decisions they couldnt deliver on. Off you toddle - Im not interested in the blustering waffle.

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178434#Comment_120178434

Oh the irony of the last sentence

you don’t seem to accept that nothing unique to Ireland and more importantly legally binding, was agreed by the Irish government, many EU countries ( mostly the large ones ) often make shiny happy pledges but don’t ever implement fully in practice

people like you fear embarrassment by way of not living up to the expectations of international NGO,s

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120177213#Comment_120177213

Landlords can deduct mortgage interest as an expense from their gross rent.

How could any house be in negative equity in 2023? The only way I could imagine is a 100% interest-only mortgage.

Geuze

I do not agree with zero refugees.

I suggest a limit of 1% of the population, i.e. 51,000.

I suggest we adopt a zero asylum-seeker policy.

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178173#Comment_120178173

We are not one of the richest countries in the EU.

Have a look at our AIC:

TomTomTim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178533#Comment_120178533

Ireland's economy is greatly distorted anyway as GDP seems to be the main measurement used in many instances

https://www.politico.eu/article/ireland-gdp-growth-multinationals-misleading/

Ireland being "rich and prosperous" is an argument these types love to rely on, as a justification to continue all the recklessness that's been happening in the country for the last few years.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178533#Comment_120178533

Very interesting map. I have always felt that Germany Austria France and Scandinavia also seemed a lot wealthier than Ireland.

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178533#Comment_120178533

Even we were “ one of the richest countries “, why does that mean we must invite in people from far flung lands?

there is no cement logic to it , it’s just dogma

out priority should be too safeguard what we have accomplished economically and culturally

Sunny Disposition

I went to a meeting in a major town on Saturday, just to hear what was said.

There were racist people there saying racist things, but most people were not racist. They said their town has no school places, no access to GPs and the local hospital is an overcrowded disaster area. After taking in about 700 refugees last year, about 6% of the towns population, the town shouldn’t be asked to take a few hundred more.

It’s very hard to argue with them.