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Molto Vepr or Utas 12

  • 11-11-2022 10:58am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 117 ✭✭


    Looking at importing (can’t find either available in Ireland anyone know one for sale?) one or both of these s/a firearms. Which one is preferable?

    Post edited by Cass on


«1

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 14,947 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Molot Veper 12 Ga any day over that Turkish thing.

    However, due to the slight disagreement between Russia and Ukraine getting a Molot Veper 12 is like getting the proverbial piebald unicorn. There was a now long-gone gun dealer up in Galway who had imported three of them I think way back in the 90s. They were the Saiga 12s shotguns,and they fell foul of the then common Garda's "Idont like de look o dat now!" firearms clause .So there might be two of them somewhere in Ireland, depending on who you listen to.

    E gun.de or planet-of-gun.com is probably your best bet or even the UK gun trader. However, most of them are Saiga 12s and they can be finicky and need tweaking by a gunsmith who knows them depending on how Oleg felt on Monday morning after a feed of Vodka the night before and was paying attention to quality control! Most of them advertised look like they were set up for IPSC,so make sure they aren't set for some particular load too. These should be dirt eaters in their original design,but if they are custom tuned...Cevat Emptor as getting parts for them here or the EU or US is now going to be fun as well.

    If you just want a scattergun with box loading features.Remington and Mossberg both make a model with that feature and can be tricked out with everything aftermarket,and it will work when you pull the trigger.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 557 ✭✭✭Asus1


    Being nosey but what were you planning on using either for as I'd say you'd get some strange looks shooting clays or hunting with them but each to their own.

    Do you have any firearms at present.Id hate to try licence one as it has the "look" about it,I'd say it would be easier getting something like a hatsan semi auto and buy aftermarket stock.



  • Registered Users Posts: 117 ✭✭itisnotgrand


    I don’t think they can use the “look” against you anymore but open to correction on that grizzly?

    Target shooting and birds like any shotgun except in timed competitions it’s a winner



  • Registered Users Posts: 557 ✭✭✭Asus1


    They probably can't use the LOOK excuse anymore but they will find another way.As we can only have 3 rounds in our shotguns the huge magazine is pointless in Ireland and just adds weight to what looks like heavy guns already.I think the guns are mostly for self defence in countries that allow it and for competitions that are not allowed in Ireland.

    For clays I'd say you'd get a pain in your arse loading and unloading that magazine.And I'd say get used to the nickname Rambo fairly quickly if you get one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,947 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    There was a case about an UTAS in Kildare about 4 years ago that ended up in front of a dist court.At the end of the day the judge ruled it is despite looks and mag capacity it's still a shotgun in lethality.IOW no more dangerous or lethal than any other high-capacity restricted shotgun So looks and mag capacity,[As it was a gun dealer registering it for private use] were not accepted as grounds to refuse a license.

    However he was perpetually tweaking and fiddling with it off and on the range to get this thing to work properly. Things should be picked up by quality control and design tweaking in the production runs, and not have to be corrected by the customer in aftermarket work. In fairness, it was a GEN 1 production gun. So maybe it's sorted now?

    .As we can only have 3 rounds in our shotguns the huge magazine is pointless in Ireland and just adds weight to what looks like heavy guns already.I think the guns are mostly for self-defence in countries that allow it and for competitions that are not allowed in Ireland

    Saigas and Molot do come with three-round hunting mags.

    As they are not rifles, the EU directive/National law on the physical magazine size point doesn't apply. So you can take a 10-round mag and "render it incapable" of holding more than 3 shots. Excellent gun for Target shotgun BTW

    Self-defence...Not very practical with the minimum 24in barrel anyway. Nuff said on that topic here.


    For clays I'd say you'd get a pain in your arse loading and unloading that magazine.And I'd say get used to the nickname Rambo fairly quickly if you get one.

    It's a BOX mag! Takes no longer to drop and reloads faster than a tube stuffer.Plus it is probably safer as if you store the mags separately from the gun.If stolen,all they have is a VERY awkward single shot. Compared to a restricted pump/semi.

    As for looks, names and complaints...Fudd's gotta Fudd!!!😁 Have shot clays with a SPAS12 once.Not a gun I'd take for a days walk for woodcock mind.But fierce fun for skeet.🤣

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



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  • Registered Users Posts: 557 ✭✭✭Asus1


    Like I said each to their own it's not a shotgun I'd want but then I have a semi auto with a bright red receiver on it and I use that for hunting.Id say since they are probably not a shotgun that regularly passes over FO desk they would Google images and probably say a big nope and then think of reasons to tell you without saying I think it looks scary and military.

    I think a while ago we had people being refused Ruger precision bolt rifles because of the LOOK so I'd hate to try licence one of these.But if they want it why not try.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,596 ✭✭✭Feisar


    Fudd's gotta Fudd and Mall Ninja's gotta do their thing to!


    Joking aside I'd say it'd handle like a drain pipe compared to a decent u/o.

    First they came for the socialists...



  • Registered Users Posts: 243 ✭✭dalalada


    Did you not read Grizzlys replies above RE: Court case on a UTAS? That particular chief looked a right dope in front of the judge and tried to back himself up saying that youre only allowed 20 guns (lies and should have been contested by defence solicitor)

    Post edited by dalalada on


  • Registered Users Posts: 243 ✭✭dalalada


    Grizzley....About the 24 inches isn't that modified down to 24inches? I believe it can be 30cm factory made or less once a muzzle or flash hider is soldered on the barrel making it over 30cm?



  • Registered Users Posts: 549 ✭✭✭Munsterlad102


    I saw a SPAS-15 in Pat O'Mahony's RFD a few weeks ago, not sure if he still has it though. Similar to what you're looking for and it might be easier than importing.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 117 ✭✭itisnotgrand


    I believe the ruger had an issue as it was under 50cm barrel length not on how it looked at all.




  • Registered Users Posts: 117 ✭✭itisnotgrand


    also would it be fair to say that if one was to license let’s say that spas and then later on sub it for a molot or similar that it would be easier too in terms of licensing it as it is already in country and also subbing for another international based SA 12 ga? As the international dealer wouldn’t need to wait as long to get a sub license



  • Registered Users Posts: 549 ✭✭✭Munsterlad102


    Seems like a very expensive and convoluted way to get a molot. You're going to have to buy both shotguns when you only have a license for one. I'd recommend that you buy whichever one you prefer or whichever one is in your budget, but what you're suggesting will cost a fortune.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,947 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Nope! It was mag capacity!!! The .22 version of that Ruger rifle has a 15-round mag capacity as std.Believe that's been sorted now.


    I saw a SPAS-15 in Pat O'Mahony's RFD a few weeks ago, not sure if he still has it though. Similar to what you're looking for and it might be easier than importing.

    The SPAS12 and 15 are even worse to work with!!! Neither are made anymore[For a very good reason! They were terrible designs from the get-go!] The SPAS 15 is a nightmare of small fiddley bits that can get lost easily and must be installed in a certain sequence.An utter horror for a military/police firearm. It's a heavy clunky design and parts are hideously expensive. A replacement mag is now 120 euros.

    The SPAS12 has an extremely dangerous trigger fault. Even with the safety on, it can fire a round when a shell goes into battery,or when the safety is put to fire. Franchi never really sorted out that problem as well. They issued a push button safety mechanism to replace the "flappy paddle safety",but it still persisted .

    The ONLY thing both models have got going for them is there are VERY photogenic. That's why they are featured in countless films, books and video games.

    Probably the reason both the ARW and ERU have these still on inventory, but are gathering dust in the armoury racks and are now using the Benelli M3 instead. The SPAS 12 was for sale very briefly to the GP in Ireland in 1985/86.Watts Bros on Ormond quay had them .Until AGS had an attack of "Idont like the look o dat now!" and demanded they be re exported...Ironic that it was the same time the film" The Teminator" made them famous,and surely our defence and police forces didn't base their firearms choice on a Sci-Fi film...???


    Grizzley....About the 24 inches isn't that modified down to 24inches? I believe it can be 30cm factory-made or less once a muzzle or flash hider is soldered on the barrel making it over 30cm?

    The Act states the minimum barrel length here for a shotgun is 24 ins or 61 cm So you can import one at that length or get a gunsmith to cut it down to 24 ins . But you can't import or modify it BELOW 24ins!! There is as usual the exception to the rule here. Should you happen on an old RIC marked Winchester 1897 Riot gun or 1897 "Trench broom" pump shotgun with a 16 or 18 inch[?]barrel and you have the money to buy it. You can get a restricted license for it. Covering both barrel length and mag capacity. However, these guns are here[1] Rare, [2] Valuable bits of Irish history of 100 years ago [3]Getting delicate in their old age [4]Expensive collector pieces. Yes, you can build up the barrel length to legal 24 ins by permanently affixing a 4 in or longer choke tube or compensator to a "Short Barrel Shotgun" [to borrow an American description here] to make it legally 24 ins minimum.

    It's why UK versions of the Mossberg 590 military pump and Mossberg "Slugster" shotgun look rather "stretched" compared to their US counterparts,as the US versions are 20-inch barrel.


    I'd say since they are probably not a shotgun that regularly passes over FO desk they would Google images and probably say a big nope and then think of reasons to tell you without saying I think it looks scary and military.

    Not the FO's decision in the first place, and second the chief can explain his reasoning in front of a judge these days if push came to shove. As there is now a precedent with the UTAS12 in a DC case...

    No , your big problem will be finding one in the EU or UK, that isn't a modified race gun, or is new in the box, that will work straight away out of the box, and if it doesn't find a gunsmith in Ireland who CAN get it to work, and can get spare parts, that's mostly the US these days,as Russia is embargoed and never supplied many spare parts. Then of course PRICE for a Molot or Saiga is pretty steep in the EU.


    That's the Bad news!! The Good news is Turkey makes the Armasan 12ga.Which is a virtual copy of the Russian Saiga 12, which was the original gun in the 1st place. Its available in the UK as a Sect 1 [restricted in Irish speak] So getting one out of the UK might be fun and expensive.

    Turkish quality Vs Russian quality? Roll the dice and take your chances!


    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 243 ✭✭dalalada


    On the barrel length:

    "(2) It is not an offence under subsection (1) for a registered firearms dealer to shorten the barrel of a shot-gun or rifle to a length of less than 61 or 50 centimetres respectively if the sole purpose of doing so is to replace a defective part of the barrel with a barrel of not than 61 or 50 centimetres, as the case may be"

    "(6) It is an offence for a person (except a registered firearms dealer) to possess without lawful authority or reasonable excuse-

    (a) a shot-gun the barrel of which is less than 61 centimetres in length"

    Question 1: As to section (2) i cant wrap my head around at this hour, however under 12Asection (6) its my understanding, and I am open to correction that if you can give a good reason you may possess a restricted shotgun with a barrel less than 61 cm(24 inch)?

    Question 2: If its a slug rifled barrel can it be 50cm?

    Question 3: under 30cm is considered a pistol so why did they bother with 30cm ruling if no one can have a rifle under 50cm and a shotgun under 61cm?

    A ruger 10/22 has a barrel of 47cm yet Ive seen them licensed here as unrestricted.

    Post edited by dalalada on


  • Registered Users Posts: 516 ✭✭✭BSA International


    Unfortunately the mall ninjas seem to be increasingly drawing attention, then the fudds loose their sport, then the mall ninjas move on to the next thing and mall ninja that .........



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,947 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Dont have many Mall Ninjas here in Ireland...plenty of Fudds though.In and outside the shooting orgs...

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,947 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    My own personal interpretation of the first and 2nd part of that act,is :

    They are trying in "official Irish legal speak" to say it is legal for a gun dealer,[where this is gunsMITH work in the first place] , to shorten a barrel to either add a cylinder or other long choke or muzzle break to bring it up to a legal length of 50 or 61 cms. Not understanding things like chokes or muzzle breaks or the like they simply called them "barrel[s] As to "repair" a firearm barrel by cutting it down, and "replacing" it with another barrel makes no sense whatsoever, and would be downright dangerous. How will you attach it?

    This isn't water piping we are talking about. These are barrels that have to take severe peak pressures of a controlled explosion repeatedly and continuously without rupturing.So brazing or whatever" fixing" is a No-No.

    2] It could, but you still need a restricted license for the shotgun slug ammo, and if you have it on a semi-auto shotgun,it would now be a semi-auto centre fire rifle, and you won't get a license for one of those apparently anymore. As well as a good reason as to why you need a 50-cm slug-only barrel for what purpose?

    3] No idea... Comes under the heading of "Three things you can be assured of in life .death, taxes and stupid gun laws!"

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 243 ✭✭dalalada


    My interpretation is (and Id love to hear others views on it):

    1) that if its a factory made SA shotgun, SA rimfire rifle or a bolt rifle (now sa/cf are gone) over 30cm then it will be licensable but im assuming on a restricted licence as it states with lawful authority. Which is interesting as an example a ruger 10/22 is usually licensed as unrestricted.

    2) The gun is labeled and sold as a semi auto shotgun therefore the barrel being a rifled barrel for slugs still wont change the label of the overall system being a shotgun in the laws eyes.

    3) Agreed. Possibly it is to do with a dealer or gunsmith being allowed to have a gun modified to 30cm minimum while fixing it up etc.

    This is certainly interesting because I do know of a guy with a ruger 10/22 on an unrestricted license with a 47cm barrel. Therefore if going by your rule of law he is holding an illegal firearm even though licensed. Of course the onus on him not the PTB to make sure its licensed correctly!

    Also this is before we start on bullpups :D



  • Registered Users Posts: 471 ✭✭jb88


    Buy a UTAS 12, If you learn how to use an operate them properly then you will have no issues at all. They work great and will feed any type of round. But they must be well maintained and looked after. You cant fire them without proper lubrication and grease, regardless of what the manual might say.

    Ive seen them used by guys who know firearms and they dont seem to have any problem with them.

    The previous user problems were always an RTFM and failure to clean and maintain.

    The UTAS got a bad rep for no other reason than a few people who got them didnt maintain, nor set the guns up correctly, nor practice with them, before competitions.

    A 5.11 camo kilt wearing person, who doesnt know how to clear a gun is just a Camo kilt wearing person, should have spent the cash on ammo and cleaning and maintaining.

    Its typical of many shooters.

    Ive never had any issue with a gun that couldnt be solved by maintenance and usage. And ive had issues with shotguns because of this many times over the years.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,758 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    Just a query on point 2 above.

    Are you sure that a rifled shotgun barrel turns a shotgun into a rifle? I wouldn't have thought so.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,947 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    As it's a rifled barrel, firing a solid bit of lead and in a 12.7 mm calibre. Literally bigger[but no way as powerful as a Browning .50 BMG] With about the accuracy and range of a 19th-century big game rifle... Looks like a duck, quacks like a duck...To the law😉

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,947 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    2) The gun is labeled and sold as a semi auto shotgun therefore the barrel being a rifled barrel for slugs still wont change the label of the overall system being a shotgun in the laws eyes.


    Which gun is it for starters?And I wouldn't bet the farm on that as being a hard and fast rule either.Esp in Ireland.We don't do nuances in our firearms laws only sweeping generalisations and grey and vague for the rest.🙄


    This is certainly interesting because I do know of a guy with a ruger 10/22 on an unrestricted license with a 47cm barrel. Therefore if going by your rule of law he is holding an illegal firearm even though licensed. Of course the onus on him not the PTB to make sure its licensed correctly

    The last bit most of all.But does he have a muzzle break or a can on it, when in use over 3cms? Good to go then.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 117 ✭✭itisnotgrand


    While I agree with your point I disagree on the legal side of it. I don’t agree that a barrel changes the system itself. (In fact we both know no one would be able to tell the difference in the barrel anyway. )

    bigger question is the 30/50/60cm ruling…I still take it to mean under lawful authority being a restricted firearm 30cm -50cm for rifle and 30cm -60cm for shottie

    As a laugh check this out:




  • Registered Users Posts: 549 ✭✭✭Munsterlad102


    Pardon my ignorance, but what piece of legislation has the barrel restrictions for rifles and shotguns? I was under the impression that any barrel length over 30cm could be licensed for rifles and shotguns as restricted firearms. Something in a criminal justice/offensive weapons bill?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,451 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


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  • Registered Users Posts: 117 ✭✭itisnotgrand


    Is there a definition of what lawful authority means? That’s the kernel of the issue

    Whats the mag capacity on a semi auto shotgun?

    Recently found out that a single action rifle (bolt, straight pull etc) doesn’t have a mag capacity.

    Post edited by itisnotgrand on


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,947 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Whats the mag capacity on a semi auto shotgun?

    In Ireland 3 shots unrestricted 10 shots restricted under EU directives transcribed into national legislation.

    Recently found out that a single action rifle (bolt, straight pull etc) doesn’t have a mag capacity.

    Somebody misinformed you.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 117 ✭✭itisnotgrand


    ah so any CF semi auto platform is limited to 10 rounds as per EU directive? and it’s legal to licence a rimfire sa restricted woth over 10 rounds…to unlimited rounds?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 549 ✭✭✭Munsterlad102


    Any CF repeating or semi auto platform. So only CF magazines and cylinders are 10 rounds by the 2008 definitions and the EU directive.



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