F1 2022- Round 21 Brazilian GP

quokula

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119872311#Comment_119872311

Different context sure, but parallels to be drawn.

In both cases you had a multiple world champion driver in a different league to his teammate, without whom the team certainly wouldn’t have won the previous year’s title. In both cases you have the team naively asking this driver to sacrifice their own race for their slower teammate (wildly different reasons and circumstances sure), and in both cases the driver refused and simply finished ahead on merit. No other top team has asked their top driver to do this in the last couple of decades and Red Bull have now done it twice and suffered a PR disaster both times. There is a reason no other top team has done it, because there is zero chance an Alonso or a Hamilton for example would comply if asked, and that’s why they’ve never been asked.

It all comes back to Red Bull’s obsession with treating their drivers absolutely equally and never giving one extra leeway just because he’s the champion and the much faster driver, which is a stark contrast to how other top teams generally operate. Last year Perez was never asked to help Max until he was mathematically out of the race, while Bottas was essentially a pawn to be used from race one. Now Max is mathematically out of the race in a different way and they make exactly the same ask of him as they asked of Perez at the end last year, without recognising the difference that P2 effectively means nothing compared to a true title fight and particularly in this race Perez did nothing to earn the right to finish ahead after Max put in a stunning recovery drive from the back of the field to finish comfortably ahead on merit. If P2 was so important Ferrari would have asked Sainz to hand his position to Leclerc, but they recognised that it just wasn’t worth the hassle.

The other parallel is the way the media portray it - Webber does it in 2011 and he’s a hero, Vettel does 100% the exact same thing and he’s a villain. All because they do everything in their power to tear down those who they perceive has a threat. Vettel’s “rehabilitation” in recent years wasn’t a sudden personality change, he simply no longer had a car to be a threat and therefore the media stopped distorting the way they reported everything he did. Max is the anointed villain right now so everything he does is warped to be portrayed in the most extreme way possible. It makes sense to ignore the hyperbole and step back and take a more nuanced and mature view of what was ultimately a 6th place that will have next to no impact in the grand scheme of things.

Lawlesz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119872758#Comment_119872758

Wait, are you saying Hamilton has never pulled over to let Bottas past? If so, then I don't know what to tell you.

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119872248#Comment_119872248

I reckon they would have still let them race. We can see from history that Mercedes have generally allowed their drivers to race until it came to the championship where 1 may need to be favoured. You have to give them credit for that...

Dave0301

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119872758#Comment_119872758

If you took your head out of Max's arse for a moment, it is okay to admit that he is a fantastic driver but that he got this one wrong.

For whatever reason he feels strong enough about not to help his teammate out, it has undermined team morale and will raise questions about what it would be like to drive for RBR with Max.

McFly85

Bad day all round for Max yesterday. Originally I thought Lewis hadn’t left enough space for Max but the analysis from Karun cleared it up and tied in with the stewards decision(essentially he was carrying too much speed after going around the outside that even if Lewis had left him more room he wouldn’t have avoided contact).

Schorpio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119873257#Comment_119873257

I still don't really buy in to that reasoning.

I think if you look at some of the moves Danny Ric pulled off in this Red Bull days, he could also have been accused of carrying too much speed into corners when overtaking ('lick the stamp and send it') but he managed to get it stopped, at the risk of the other driver not expecting it.

As I saw it, the reason for the incident was the lack of space Lewis left Max at the apex. Max was very much alongside Lewis throughout T1 and into T2. For me, you can't say 'well if Lewis hadn't squeezed Max, Max would have collided with Lewis anyway'. That's a reality which never played out.

Racing incident would have been fair. If I had to penalize, I would have put it Lewis' way, but it was marginal.

KillerShamrock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119873257#Comment_119873257

hold up who are you to come on here and give a level headed opinion on that moment we all know Lewis with his spicy enginge tried to kill max once again with his invincible merc that was developed under the guise of the AMG one and max has never put a foot wrong now go wash your mouth out with soap for all that sense you are talkin and write "I hate lewis Hamiltion" 1000 times.../s

But yeah i felt like Karun did explain it well, and the stewards were taking it as a turn 2 incident, max was ahead T1 but behind T2. Its a Turn 2 matter not a turn 1 matter that a lot of people seem to think it is, the penalty in hindsight I dunno maybe not really justified, he should of backed out taken more evasive action with the closing gap like the rest of the grid would of most likely IMO. It cost max very little in the long run and he alway has a free place when checo is ahead of him. Ferrari were faster merc were faster and so was alonso

coltmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119873359#Comment_119873359

I can see both sides of the argument about the collision, initially I thought Lewis closed the door and after watching the overhead it looked like it was Max's fault. I think the issue was trying to defend against Perez put him and Lewis in a strange position hence the crash. To say they were all faster than Max is a bit disingenuous. They were in the sprint but, and granted the safety car covered made up some distance but he was back in last and had trouble in the pits, a penalty and had to overtake half the guts of the field in damaged car. He still finished just behind Alonso with pace at times matching the leaders. If he had not had the collision he would have been on podium at a minimum or very least in race with Sainz .

Killinator

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119872758#Comment_119872758

Just took this snippet out so no need to read the wall of text:

"It all comes back to Red Bull’s obsession with treating their drivers absolutely equally and never giving one extra leeway just because he’s the champion and the much faster driver"

But that...THAT right there is why nothing you say about Max or Red Bull has any merit and is seen as trolling. If you actually genuinely believe the above bit of text you wrote then you need to be sectioned!

artanevilla

I just think Max likes to beat his partner. He didn't lick it off a stone.

glenfieldman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119874566#Comment_119874566

Bit of a **** thing to say, his dad was convicted but no allegation regarding Max

jacool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119874779#Comment_119874779

I just think Max likes to beat his partner. He didn't lick it off a stone.

In old parlance, this is called a "joke" - and it's a very clever one too, because you can actually see what he did there.

Or be really sad and think that this is literal!!!

glenfieldman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119874948#Comment_119874948

my apologies to the poster, I didn’t read the room.

tongue in cheek joke I didn’t get

Captain_Crash

So, according to Red Bull, Max wasn’t told to move over for Perez until the final corner and wasn’t left with any time to react?!?

In a statement, Red Bull said: 'As a team we made some mistakes in Brazil. We had not envisaged the situation that unfolded on the last lap and we had not agreed a strategy for such a scenario before the race.

'Regretfully, Max was only informed at the final corner of the request to give up position without all the necessary information being relayed.

'This put Max, who has always been an open and fair team player, in a compromising situation with little time to react which was not our intention.

Now I don’t know how true that is and if it’s RB trying to firefight or what! But it’s interesting none the less!

NinjaTruncs

But wasn't the message that if he didn't pass Alonso by turn 13 them to swap with Perez. Seems strange to give a message about a turn he'd already passed. I'm not buying that excuse, this seems like damage limitation for Max seeing as he came across so bad by not giving up the spot.

T-Maxx

Red Bullshit

JRant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119886656#Comment_119886656

https://youtu.be/waBaMPyDo9c

Just as well the team radio wasn't broadcast because then it would show that the above statement is completely untrue. The start of the clip shows Max was told to not worry about DRS and let Checo through, which clearly means he was nowhere near the last corner. In fact it's almost 30 seconds from the start of the comms to when Max crosses the line and is asked why he didn't let Checo through.

Why even bother with such a statement when everyone knows it's BS.

blade1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119886858#Comment_119886858

Could be caused by coccidia oocysts.

Captain_Crash

Yeah it’s an odd one because as you said, the radio chat was broadcast… and I’m fairly sure I heard him be told to allow checo pass at T14… but, RB know this is all available so it doesn’t make sense to give what appears to be a bullshit statement like that! That’s what makes it interesting…. If it was lies someone must have called it out before publication…?!?

JRant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119887394#Comment_119887394

https://twitter.com/andrewbensonf1/status/1593210815540514816?t=aKFqnUFRr8moYkSFpKcevw&s=19

It's not even up for debate. He was told early in the lap to give the place back and just stonewalled the pitwall.

rock22

Irrespective of the RedBull attempt to control the media chatter about this, I think we can all say, whether we agree with Verstappen's actions or not, that "This shows who he really is." (Perez)

Captain_Crash

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119887493#Comment_119887493

I don’t think anyone’s debating that he was told long before the last corner to move aside, what I’m wondering is why d’fuq did Red Bull come out with a statement that was clearly disprovable?!? That baffles me!

JRant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119888949#Comment_119888949

Oh yeah, I'm with you on that alright. It could be something they've come out with after pressure from the verstappens to show that they have his back. Nothing else really makes sense.