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F1 2022- Round 21 Brazilian GP



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,203 ✭✭✭ quokula

    Brundle mentioned Monaco, and Crofty followed up with a wild conspiracy theory about Perez crashing on purpose. I doubt anyone in their right mind believes he did, least of all someone within Red Bull who was present at the debrief with full access to the data.

    I'd imagine if it was about Monaco it's more about the fact that the championship was very clearly looking like a tight two horse race between Max and Charles at the time, yet Checo held up Max for the race (he had track position thanks to the crash in qualy, but I think everyone can agree that was more luck than malice) then they gave Perez first preference on pit stops which ultimately consigned Max to third place, when the team could easily have pit Max first and he would have won. Nobody knew how badly Ferrari would crash and burn as the season went on, so throwing away those points for Max could have proved critical in the long run. But then that's just how Red Bull operate, they'll never treat their slower driver as a number 2 until he's mathematically out of the championship.

    In Max's mind maybe he thinks he shouldn't help Checo now since Checo didn't help him then, but who knows as it's all conjecture. Maybe they'll clarify in the coming days but it was a real unnecessary shot in the foot from Red Bull when they should have just let them race like Ferrari sensibly did with their two drivers. P2 in the drivers championship has no real benefit or meaning, not one that compensates for introducing these kinds of dilemmas to the team.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,751 ✭✭✭ ForestFire

    "I only pointed it out because...."

    It was mentioned in the commentary as well, so it was not just your post that got me interested and wondering about it, thats all.

    Also on the F1, I agree with a previous poster that cars should move to the back, under the safety car, and this reason of saving fuel as an advantage to them, I don't agree with really, they are a lap down for a reason, and even if they did get a small advantage, how does it really benefit them, or could it even make any real difference.

  • Registered Users Posts: 11,550 ✭✭✭✭ Faugheen

    The man who accused Mercedes of corruption today claims others are making a mountain out of a molehill.

    Top trolling.

  • Registered Users Posts: 11,428 ✭✭✭✭ flazio

    Ah, OK. I was using synced up BBC Radio commentary so I didn't know. They end transmission after the Parc Ferme interviews so wouldn't bring up the national anthem.

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,203 ✭✭✭ quokula

    Anyway, aside from the sideshow where everyone tries to pile on and make a massive deal of someone not engaging in team orders to hand over a 6th place, overall it was a pretty good race. Interlagos nearly always delivers.

    More dirty driving from Hamilton early on but that's really par for the course for him when actually having to race for a competitive place so at this point it's barely worth commenting on. I am impressed with how bullet proof that Mercedes is, how reliably both Lewis and George are able to routinely hit other drivers without taking damage themselves. I found myself wondering what would happen if the two of them ever hit each other, an unstoppable force hitting an immovable object.

    I wonder if karma from that incident may bite Lewis in the long run because the result was that this could arguably be the race people look back on as the one that cemented his role as the Mercedes number 2 driver, where it would might well have been just another inconsequential Verstappen win had Hamilton kept it clean. For George's part, he didn't really put a foot wrong and the win was never in doubt once Max was out of the picture. The safety car might have made it perilous but he was able to comfortably pull out a gap as soon as they got racing again.

    Mercedes do look to have the clear fastest car now though and they'll be the team to beat in Abu Dhabi. It's really only been Max that's beaten them the last couple of races, Perez hasn't been anywhere near them, while Ferrari have fallen away.

    It was a great performance from Sainz to recover from his early woes and get on the podium though. I've said it before but I do think Sainz has much better racecraft than Leclerc, while Charles is faster over a lap. Sainz always look racey and is always thinking about strategy, whereas when Leclerc ends up back in the field for whatever reason it often seems like he just doesn't really progress. It was looking like that for a while today but eventually with the aid of the safety car he came through. It was a very sloppy move from Norris that took Leclerc out, but it was pretty uncharacteristic and he had been ill all weekend so he deserves the benefit of the doubt.

    Alonso on fine form, after he did himself no favours with the fireworks and inflammatory statements in the sprint race, he showed today that he still has that magic at times and that's why he's still in such demand.

    Great recovery drive from Max after being taken out early. To think he was put to the back of the field, had a damaged car, forced to serve an absolutely ridiculous penalty, and still climbed back up and beat his teammate who had a trouble free race fair and square, it was one hell of a drive. Such a shame the team tried to interfere and dirty laundry got aired. They should have just handled it like Ferrari. Everyone is saying if Perez loses P2 it will be Max's fault for not giving him the position, yet Sainz cost Leclerc even more points by not giving him his position this race, but nobody is talking about it because the team acted sensibly. It's not often you can say that about Ferrari compared to Red Bull.

    Honourable mention for Vettel, he drove a great race as best of the rest behind the big three teams much of the way through, even in a podium place for a brief time, but was put on the wrong tyres at the wrong time which sent him backwards when the safety car came out.

    And even more honourable mention for Magnussen, after the heroics on Friday and the come down on Saturday, what a shame to be taken out at the very start. Ricciardo takes a three place penalty into the next race which is probably about right given he put himself out of this race too with the move. In some ways it was a shame having a sprint race because taking that mixed up grid from qualifying into the race would have been really fun, but it had mostly shaken itself out by Sunday.

    On a final note, they really need to look at the mess of the safety car. Not only did they not let Tsunoda through, they let Latifi who was behind him through so Tsunoda had to actually cede a position to Latifi then watch him drive off. And unlike Abu Dhabi where there was a lot of noise about minor technicalities that had zero impact on the outcome, the chaos here probably had a material impact on the final result, as aside from Tsunoda directly giving up a place it really cost Sainz a genuine chance he had of attacking the top two on his fresh tyres after getting past Perez, something he lost due to the multiple extra unnecessary laps behind the safety car in the confusion. I wonder if they'll hold an inquiry into this one? The officiating this year has been dreadful, even by the FIA's usual poor standards.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 697 ✭✭✭ thefa

    It would seem very petty to hold onto that still given how things have panned out. Understand the perspective (let them race) but I don’t mind the intention of Red Bull and believe 2nd for Perez is meaningful to him (maybe financially too, I don’t know).

    Max handled it poorly. If he said Perez is not close enough or even said nothing, it would have been better.

    Anyways, as you say it was a good race and Interlagos gave arguably the best weekend of the season despite the titles being already decided. The circuit makes such a difference.

  • Registered Users Posts: 9,579 ✭✭✭ Frank Bullitt

    He might as well leave RB now if that’s the case. He is only in F1 right now because of RB.

  • Registered Users Posts: 9,579 ✭✭✭ Frank Bullitt

    Get over yourself there.

    Max doesn’t need to give positions to anyone, he is the teams top driver and top F1 driver.

    All this painting him as some sort of so sore creature, all F1 drivers are like this, the ones that don’t follow order like this generally are the ones who win championships, just like Vettel in 2013, and he was right to do so.

  • Registered Users Posts: 9,579 ✭✭✭ Frank Bullitt

    Laughable. Just flat out laughable. There will be no real consequences at all.

    Lads, he is champion for a reason, this is an example of that. Just like all of them.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,362 ✭✭✭ Captain_Crash

    So I’ve let the dust settle after all the debate last night! And although I really like Max I thought at the time it was a dick move! But thinking more about it…. That’s what separates good drivers from great drivers… being a bit c**tish! My all time fave Vettel is loved by everyone these days but was just as big a prick when he was winning titles!

    The race itself?!? Meh… it had an exciting start but I started paying more attention to the NFL after the first round of pit stops! It wasn’t a bad race, but was missing something!

    One things for sure…! That Merc looks, dare I say it… “spicy”

  • Registered Users Posts: 19,377 ✭✭✭✭ ELM327

    I think RB are cutting back on this year's cost cap and stopped developing the car a long time ago to work on next year.

  • Registered Users Posts: 11,571 ✭✭✭✭ AdamD

    'That's what champions do' is an utterly dreadful justification for crappy, indefensible behaviour. Champions help their team mates all of the time.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,765 ✭✭✭ McFly85

    It’s good to see Max being called out for it, whatever his personal feelings are there really isn’t a good reason to help his teammate in the championship. Hope the team have made that clear and he sees how universally poorly received that decision was. As much as RB are currently set up to cater for him, it’s racing, I’m sure drivers have lots of things they aren’t happy about in a race but there’s no point hanging on to it. It’s even more surprising as generally with racing incidents he never really makes a big deal about them.

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,076 ✭✭✭ Sunny Dayz

    It's a pity that much of the commentary after the race was more about Verstappen not giving the place to Perez than Russell's first F1 win.

  • Registered Users Posts: 9,234 ✭✭✭ weisses

    I am a fan of Max in general, but what he did yesterday has more charateristics of a petulant child instead, then that of a 2 time WC.

    There are hundreds and hundreds of people working for RB and securing a 1,2 in the drivers standing means something to them.

    Max should realize that the healthy team dynamic played a big role in the past 2 years, there is a good chance he threw that all away by yesterdays immature behavior

    As was said somewhere else

    You cannot expect a child to hold up his end of a Gentlemans agreement

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,203 ✭✭✭ quokula

    I think what you'll find looking back is that while Vettel has certainly matured, he was still the largely the same likable decent guy when he was winning titles as he is today, but because he was dominating and beating British drivers the English speaking media we're stuck with treated him much like they treat Max today, and like they treated Rosberg and Alonso when they were winning, driving the narrative they wanted to drive with little regard for facts.

    To take multi-21 (which is really the only thing from that era people have to latch onto to attack Vettel over). Vettel was faster, he was the defending champion but stood behind a Lotus and Ferrari in the championship (albeit extremely early in the season), he qualified on pole and he was driving a solid race. He was only behind Webber because of a different tyre strategy but that put him on better tyres ready to overtake at the end. The team made a naive decision that for the sake of reliability they didn't want them pushing the engines too hard and asked Vettel to hold station behind his slower teammate. Vettel refused, believed he had the pace to win, and proved it by overtaking Webber fair and square then pulling out a gap and winning comfortably.

    The media made an absolute mountain out of this molehill, and even though it was an example of the team trying to favour Webber over Vettel (for pure reliability reasons, as in reality they always got 100% equal treatment), it somehow inexplicably morphed into an example of how the team favoured Vettel, which they never did.

    The thing is that that this wasn't the only incident like this. At Silverstone 2011 Vettel was ahead of Webber and the team did the exact same thing - for the sake of reliability in the closing stages of the race they asked Webber not to attack and to just bring the cars home. But Webber ignored the order and attacked and attempted to overtake anyway. He lacks the skill of Vettel so his overtake attempts failed and Sebastian finished ahead, but the way it was reported in the media was entirely different. The circumstances were basically 100% identical, just the roles reversed, but in this case the narrative was "good on the plucky Aussie for not succumbing to despicable team orders", in contrast to "what a selfish dastardly German refusing to comply with reasonable team orders". And of course multi21 still gets brought up to this day, while that other race is largely forgotten.

    It's worth looking at the facts and not the hyperbole and the narrative the media tries to drive.

    Red Bull generally have a philosophy of treating their drivers completely equally and don't have much experience of using team orders like Mercedes did routinely with Bottas or Ferrari used to before they changed philosophy after the backlash for the order with Massa. I think this is the reason that when they do do something, like Brazil today or multi21 before, that they do it in quite a ham-fisted way and shoot themselves in the foot when in both cases they should have just let them race. Ferrari had the good sense to let their guys race rather than make an unreasonable request of Sainz which would have been equally valid in the race for P2, but would have also most likely met with refusal (but wouldn't have had anything like the same level of scrutiny as Sainz and Ferrari are not public enemy number 1 these days like Red Bull are, or like they used to be when it was Alonso and Massa)

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,765 ✭✭✭ McFly85

    I don’t think it will affect Checos decisions in regards to helping out Max. I’d say he’s well aware that any refusal to play the team game means that’s the end of his time at Red Bull. And as annoyed as he probably is right now(and rightly so), he’s not going to get a seat with a top end car capable of winning races anywhere else.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,250 ✭✭✭ KillerShamrock

    if it went down like:

    'Max if checo lets you by and gives you a shot at Alonoso and you dont get past before the end will you give max the place back?' and max had said 'No, ill pass checo on track and he can defend aganst me to try keep the place' then this wouldn't be as bad.

    Instead we got what we did and he stabbed one of the most liked drivers on the grid/paddock in the back.

    The agreement with checo to let max past and give it his best which he couldnt manage this time was empty words which max just used to gain an absolutely pointless place for him and he just showed his true self in a very public highlighted way that didnt need to happen and probably permanently damaging the dynamic they had.

    I know checo will get paccified by RB and not allowed speak about it and and will probably get another sympathy win handed to him at some point which is unfortunate. I would love nothing more than for him to completly refuse to help max in future but we all know that wont happen.

    Oh just used the ignore function for the first time to remove/hide a poster and it hid the conspiricy theorist with the lewis hamilton shaped chip on his shoulder from my view of the thread/all threads, its great just leaves a blank space where they post, which thinking anout it is probably more truthful/factual and helpful 😂 than the drivel they usually post... last one i seen was that the AMG One is mercs secret way of developing their F1 around the cost cap budget while ignoring all the other teams that also produce OTT hypercars

  • Registered Users Posts: 9,234 ✭✭✭ weisses

    To me its a healthy good working team dynamic that is at risk here. Verstappen lost so much more yesterday than those 2 points he gained.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,283 ✭✭✭ NinjaTruncs

    It was interesting that the Mercs were going to let Lewis and George race each other at the end, I wonder would it have been the same call it Lewis was in P1.

  • Registered Users Posts: 463 ✭✭ Lawlesz

    All that effort into typing a post so far out of context to be basically irrelevant.

    The difference between this and multi 21 was that Max had nothing to gain from this. His championship was sewn up, he just effed off his team mate and how many hundred staff at the factory for no reason other than being a petulant child.

    As another poster also mentioned, from what we know he used team orders to get past Checo and then reneged on the agreement.

    To say RB give their drivers equal treatment is laughable. The whole team and car is built around Max and his driving style.

    I've been a Max fan for years, but there is no defending that. He has basically lived up to everything the Hamilton fans have thrown at him, that he is petulant, spolit and everything else.

    Its not "something all the greats have". Senna, Schumacher they all played the team game when needed, particularly at times when their job was done and championship decided.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,765 ✭✭✭ McFly85

    So am I right then in saying that the only scenario where Max’ selfishness comes into play is with a double DNF for Perez and Leclerc? Possibly fastest lap points too but that’s really remote.

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,362 ✭✭✭ Captain_Crash

    It’s not the only scenario but it’s not likely to make a difference, it comes into play if it’s a double DNF or LEC finishes 9th & PER 10th! (Or 8th and 9th??)

  • Registered Users Posts: 11,550 ✭✭✭✭ Faugheen

    Not true. If they finish 4th and 5th (or 5th and 6th etc) and Checo gets the fastest lap, then he would finish one point behind.

    EDIT: just saw your edit now.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,765 ✭✭✭ McFly85

    Yeah I was thinking about fastest lap alright. I’d consider it a remote possibility anyway because Checo would likely have to choose to give up track position to go for it while Ferrari would just bring in Sainz if needed.

    I think a double DNF is most likely as I can’t imagine both cars finishing between 8th and 10th. At least Checo knows the objective would hasn’t changed really, just beat Leclerc.

    I was thinking if Max is miles ahead in the race he won’t even have an opportunity to help Checo, but there’s a possibility he might need to cover fastest lap just in case. Be very interesting if that happens!

  • Registered Users Posts: 20,399 ✭✭✭✭ pjohnson

    I defo think Checo will be less willing to compromise his own race to help Max in future. While he wont outright block Max he will probably keep a bigger eye on his own race from now on rather than sacrifice himself for Max.

  • Registered Users Posts: 55 ✭✭ coltmaster

    If Max goes completely out of his way like Schumacher did for Irvine after he came back from broken leg, then he could influence the result but I don't see a scenario unless the Ferraris's are much faster then Perez. I can't fathom why he didn't pull over, even if it was for Monaco incident or something perceived or he kicked his dog, it was such a pr disaster. There was nothing to gain, if Perez was going for 2nd place in last race and he did something to screw him over then I could half understand, but this was just nonsensical. Even if Max is a hero and does something amazing to get him 2nd place in championship it still won't be a pr win. Russell's win completely overshadowed.

  • Registered Users Posts: 20,399 ✭✭✭✭ pjohnson

    I also find it somewhat amusing that Max's cùntishness is overshadowing the clusterfùck that was the Race Director completely forgetting Yuki Tsunoda was on track.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,428 ✭✭✭✭ flazio

    Found this (open to read the thread)

    Was on too late last night but I do want to check C4 highlights this evening . They were presenting from Red Bull HQ in Milton Keyes this weekend and Mark Webber was on Co comms. Could be some interesting opinions there 🍿

This discussion has been closed.