Electoral Reform Act 2022.

Fandymo

I couldn’t find anything on this in CA, but I think it’s a hugely important piece of anti-democratic legislation that should be publicised in the busiest forum on Boards.

The government has decided to BAN anyone from setting up a new political party, unless you already have a sitting TD or MEP.

I don’t recall any debate, discussion or protest ever asking for this. I think it is an affront to democracy. If you aren’t already in our club, you can’t join it. These people are supposed to represent the will of the people. This is not democracy.

What do the people of Boards think?

45: Qualifying criteria for registration of political parties:

the party has at least one member who, at the time the application for registration is made, is a member of Dáil Éireann or is a representative in the European Parliament (whether by reason of his or her having been elected as such a representative in the State or having been nominated as a replacement candidate under the Act of 1997) and who certifies in writing to the Registrar that he or she is a member of the party

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058270244/electoral-reform-act-2022

If that turns out to be the case, it's yet again more anti-democratic legislation from this government.

First, Helen of Meath's nonsense hate speech legislation, and now this.

To put this into perspective, UKIP in the UK managed to hoover up 4 million votes in the 2015 election - changing British politics; and that party would never have been registered in the UK had they had this kind of legislation in place.

Rotten to the core legislation. Fine Gael will never get my vote again.

Podge_irl

 (i) (I) the party has not less than 300 recorded members or, in the case of a party applying for registration as a party organised to contest elections in part of the State or local elections only, 100 recorded members, each of whom (in any of the foregoing cases) has reached the age of 18 years, and (II) at least 50 per cent of the recorded members are registered in the electoral register,

(ii) the party has at least one member who, at the time the application for registration is made, is a member of Dáil Éireann or is a representative in the European Parliament (whether by reason of his or her having been elected as such a representative in the State or having been nominated as a replacement candidate under the Act of 1997) and who certifies in writing to the Registrar that he or she is a member of the party, or

(iii) in the case of a party which applies for registration as a party organised to contest a local election only, it has at least 3 members who are, at the time the application for registration is made, members of a local authority and each of whom certifies in writing to the Registrar that he or she is a member of the party

There are three means of qualifying to set up a party

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119828439#Comment_119828439

Incorrect, you need all both for general elections.

The first 2 have always been in place. The third part was added in July.

Dyr

Of course this should be a major media story, but the parties and the media now think that if they don't hang together then they'll hang seperately, both idealogically and financially. Lot of angry citizens out there, the economy is about to go down the shitter and even our government wont be able to hand out passports to the New Irish quick enough to dilute the effect.

Banana Republic redux

Icemancometh

Does the or at the end of the second clause not imply that you need to meet one of the three criteria, not all of them?

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119828448#Comment_119828448

Fair enough. I would argue the construction of the clauses with the "or" before section (iii) makes it a list of options rather than a list of requirements. But I don't draft laws for a living.

What do you mean by "always been in place"?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119828448#Comment_119828448

If the first two were already in place, how does that fit with your OP where it was stated:

"The government has decided to BAN anyone from setting up a new political party, unless you already have a sitting TD or MEP.

I don’t recall any debate, discussion or protest ever asking for this. I think it is an affront to democracy. If you aren’t already in our club, you can’t join it. These people are supposed to represent the will of the people. This is not democracy."

If your latest post is correct, the part in italics is at best a complete misrepresentation, or at worst a complete lie intended to flame discussion.

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119828525#Comment_119828525

You’ve previously always needed 300 members etc to register a party. The need to have a seat is new.

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119828525#Comment_119828525

The or is to differentiate between general or local elections. If you only want to stand on loca issues you need to have 3 sitting counsellors in your party.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119828564#Comment_119828564

so by the "third part is new" you mean clause (b)(ii)?

My reading is still that this is a list of options, and the addition of (b)(ii) would be to suggest you can register a party without 300 members if you have a member of parliament. i.e., it is a relaxation of requirements to ensure that any party with representation in the Dáil can be registered.

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119828538#Comment_119828538

The need for 300 members and at least 150 of them registered to vote. They have now added the hurdle of needing a sitting TD or MEP to register a party.

It’s hardly rocket science. Previously you needed the backing of Irish people to register a party, now you need to be a member of the club to register one.

ohnonotgmail

My reading of is that (i), (ii) or (iii) is required. Given the , at the end of (i) and the "or" at the end of (ii) I cannot see how any other interpretation makes sense.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119828569#Comment_119828569

X, Y, or Z means that it is a list of options and X or Y or Z can be the qualifying factor.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119828746#Comment_119828746

those are the kind of mistakes you make when you look at one section in isolation and dont use the adjoining sections for context. Curious as well that they omitted the ", or" from the section they did quote.

magicbastarder

what do they mean by 'ban'?

what i can see is that you can't register as a political party until certain qualifying criteria are met. that doesn't mean political parties are 'banned'?

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119828809#Comment_119828809

Just a poor understanding of english, like the rest of the OP.

ELM327

Yes it's OR not AND

Dyr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119828538#Comment_119828538

Undet this legislation, is it possible for a new political party to contest a general election without having a sitting TD or MEP?

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119828949#Comment_119828949

yes, if you read it properly.

magicbastarder

from wikipedia, presumably relating to the existing, not proposed, legislation:

"In order to be registered to contest national elections a party must have either at least one member in Dáil Éireann or the European Parliament, or 300 recorded members aged 18 or over. Parties that register only to contest elections in part of the state or in local elections need only 100 recorded members aged 18 or over. In either case at least half of the recorded members must be on the register of electors."

there is nothing about banning going on. if you fail to meet the relevant criteria, any elected representatives you have are just officially treated as independents.

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119828949#Comment_119828949

No.

To contest a general election you must be registered as a party. To register as a party you need to have 300 members, all over 18, with at least 150 of those registered to vote, and a sitting TD or MEP who will put in writing that they are a member of your party.

The “or” that people don’t seem to understand only differentiates between general and local elections.

So for a general election you need the first paragraph, “OR” for local elections you need 3 members who are already part sitting on a local authority rather than a TD or MEP.

So for a general election you need 300 members, with at least 150 of them registered voters and a TD or MEP

For a local election you need 300 members, with at least 150 of them registered voters and 3 people already sitting on local authorities.

Can’t put it any simpler than that. Still not getting it?? Contact your local citizens advice, they’ll tell you the same.

StrawbsM

Crisis averted so!

No way something like that would have gone under the radar.

magicbastarder

To contest a general election you must be registered as a party.

you're leaving an important detail out. there's nothing stopping you from contesting a seat in an election, but you will be treated as an independent unless you meet the criteria.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119829024#Comment_119829024

To contest a general election you must be registered as a party

This is simply false

To register as a party you need to have 300 members, all over 18, with at least 150 of those registered to vote, and a sitting TD or MEP who will put in writing that they are a member of your party.

According to you. Pretty much everyone else disagrees with your interpretation of how this is written. It is an OR not an "and". You are not putting forth any argument as to why your interpretation is correct.

StrawbsM

Here’s a screenshot. It is missing an “or”

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119829047#Comment_119829047

It’s not an interpretation. You have a local citizens advice, you’ll have local TDs. Contact either and ask them. I won’t ask for an apology, just once you get the answer from them, come back and tell the class what they tell you.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119828506#Comment_119828506

That’s how I read Irish statues written like this.

If it is banning new parties effectively its chilling small groups of independents that’s probably not great.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119829024#Comment_119829024

If it was (i) AND ( (ii) or (iii) ) it would have been formatted differently with (ii) and (ii) indented one level and an "and" after (i).

marieholmfan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119829065#Comment_119829065

Small groups of nutters pretending to be important instead of fixing their own lives you mean.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119829062#Comment_119829062

You can do it seeing as you are the one claiming it actually is not following normal English conventions.

You must bring Form A, Form B, or Form C does not imply that you need to bring both Form A and Form B, or just Form C. It means you can bring just one.

Dyr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119829038#Comment_119829038

"We're not banning your party, we're just not letting your party run in an election"

Get up the yard, ye chancer. Even the Jesuits would blush at that sort of equivocating

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119829097#Comment_119829097

TLDR it could be better written

StrawbsM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119829097#Comment_119829097

Your form analogy make sense

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119829103#Comment_119829103

that isn't happening either. your reading comprehension is lacking.

Faugheen

So this thread is about the use of 'and' and/or 'or'.

Another nothing burger described in outrage because the government is going to get ya!

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119829109#Comment_119829109

for legal drafting it is quite clear.

28064212

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119829059#Comment_119829059

It's not. The relevant 'or' is at the end of clause 45(b)(ii), and is present in your screenshot.

To register as a political party, you must meet the (a), (b) and (c) requirements. To meet (b), the section under discussion, you must fulfil b(i), b(ii) OR b(iii). The OP is clearly mistaken. This new clause expands the the pool eligible to register as a party: if you only have only 200 members, but have a sitting TD, you are eligible now

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119829062#Comment_119829062

Neither local citizens advice or local TDs have a clue about legal issues.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119829065#Comment_119829065

please show me, even just once, where the word 'ban' or similar appears; and if it does appear, what the penalty is for pretending to be a political party?

if there's no penalty, there's no ban.

it's a set of criteria for determining what officially is recognised as a political party in the state. we don't want a bunch of lads who were on a stag night out together registering as a political party as a jape, it simply is placing criteria around that.

getting 20 of your like minded citizens together and calling yourselves The People's Front of Ballycanewdea, and campaigning for your political ends, is not banned. but you'll be too small for the register.

Fandymo

I am incorrect.

My local citizens information have phoned me back and said that they gave me incorrect information in the first instance. They, like me, misread it.

StrawbsM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119829130#Comment_119829130

Yeah it makes sense now.

plodder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119829038#Comment_119829038

There are additional criteria if you are running for election, but not as a member of a party, though they aren't particularly onerous. I think you need either a deposit of €500 or else signed declarations from 30 voters

StrawbsM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119829146#Comment_119829146

What you gonna call your political party?

😂

28064212

Also, this is section b(ii) from the current Electoral law (Electoral (Amendment) Act, 2001, section 25):

(ii) the party has at least one member who, at the time the application for registration is made, is a member of the Dáil or is a representative in the European Parliament (whether by reason of his having been elected as such a representative in the State or having been nominated as a replacement candidate under the European Parliament Elections Act, 1997) and who certifies in writing to the Registrar that he is a member of the party

This is literally already the law! The OP is completely wrong

RobbieTheRobber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119829168#Comment_119829168

Fianna anecdotally, for the anecdotal majority of people who supposedly follow Fandys stance.

Fandymo

@Ten of Swords Thread can be closed. I was given incorrect information. Thanks.

Red Silurian

It's a strange bit of legislation alright. I mean nobody called for it as opposed to many other things people call for that gets brushed aside.. Is it anti-democratic? That's a stretch...

Formation of a political party and registration by the dail are very different things

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119829624#Comment_119829624

nothing strange about it. the OP got it wrong. the new legislation is similar to the old legislation except it relaxes the restrictions slightly.

xxxxxxl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119829122#Comment_119829122

In legal texts that makes huge differences. Where laws can fail for example to cover something.

upandcumming

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119829122#Comment_119829122

As the previous poster mentioned, it makes a huge difference.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/09/us/oxford-comma-maine.html