Window Cleaner caused huge damage to glass.

jean3009

Has anyone ever successfully made a claim either through the Small Claims Court or the trades own insurance for damages to their property?

Long story short, the window cleaner has caused about €3K worth of damage to our glass. Windows were installed about 12 months ago in an extension to our home. He has admitted to using a Unger scraper but he is denying that he caused any damage. Of course I know he did it, since I have cleaned the windows a number of times myself and I am 100% that the scratches were not there beforehand. I mean you cant miss them, they run down and across one particular window. I do have photographs of the windows showing that they were covered during construction and showing them gleaming afterwards and scratch free but I have no way of proving that he did this.

Does anyone have any advise for me please? Can anyone please help?

zg3409

If you have a business name and address or home address apply to.small claims. It's an easy process. Try to keep a record of all messages and responses ideally written form such as texts.

zg3409

You will need a quote to replace glass only, like for like leaving old frame

walterking

It will be very difficult to prove unless you have evidence.

It may be repairable

http://glasspolish.ie/glass-scratch-repair/index.html

jean3009

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119820989#Comment_119820989

It happened on Friday and we have already got a quote from the original manufacturer and installer and its coming in at just under €3K. I think there is a limit in the small claims court of €2K but worth going through the process I suppose.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119820980#Comment_119820980

Yes, we have all of these, business name and address which is their home address too. I have WhatsApp messages but when he called to look at the damage he decided to record the entire conversation on his mobile phone in his pocket which he only told us as he got back into his van. The discussion which got heated due to his complete denial of any wrongdoing too place inside our home and with both my young children occasionally entering the room. In my opinion only someone with something to hide would resort to this low.

jean3009

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119821006#Comment_119821006

I think its beyond repair. The scratches on one window in particular are all the way across and all way up the window. The scratches are deep and in some cases there are hair type shavings still hanging on.

godskitchen

Why on earth was he using a scraper if you had previously cleaned the glass a number of times?

Using a scraper would suggest that there was either residue from plastic, stickers or silicone, or, cement on the glass?

Modern double or triple glazed windows often come scratched from the factory and often with scratches on the internal panes. Are these definitely on the outside? Did he also do the inside? Are you sure there are no scratches on the inside also?

jean3009

It was an Unger blade, I have no idea why he would use this, the window was cleaned a few times already and certainly didnt have any silicone or stickers or construction debris whatsoever.

Most of the scratches are on the glass inside the house i.e. he cleaned both the outside and the inside. I cant tell if there are any on the internal panes (they are tripple glazed units).

FlipperThePriest

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119821151#Comment_119821151

 He decided to record the entire conversation on his mobile phone in his pocket which he only told us as he got back into his van. 

I'm pretty sure this is inadmissible in court. He can't just come onto your property and record you without your permission. Different story if it happened in public though.

jean3009

This is one the worst panes, you can see the stroke of the blade quite clearly.

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119821162#Comment_119821162

Hold on... "hair type shavings"... this is critical information here as that's not a common trait of glass. Glass commonly fragments into small sandy shards and does not have a tenancy to coil or have "plasticity" unless heated.

Having shavings would indicate to me that the glass has a transparent plastic coating - probably a thermal barrier or easy-clean formulation - and that has now been damaged and not the glass itself.

I'd be looking to the manufacturer to provide a specification sheet indicating the hardness and durability of the glass and coatings as perhaps it's not the window-cleaner to blame here. Do they specifically state that a cleaning blade cannot be used on their glass, and if so, why not?

kirk.

Jeez that's bad you have tried giving it a wipe to check

I've used Stanley blades on my old windows to scrape stuff off don't think I ever noticed a scratch after it

Hard to understand why he was using blades on a customer's windows you'd be mad like

jean3009

"Glass

1. Protect glass from all alkali materials and fluoride bearing compounds

2. Never use scrapers, razor blades, steel wool or other metal tool on glass – the window supplier is not responsible for scratches occurring during construction or cleaning.

3. Water used to wash the face of the building may contain contamination taken from mortar, cement, organic coatings etc. – it will damage the glass surface. "

Directly from the manufacturers website.

lawred2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119820980#Comment_119820980

that may exceed limits of scc

Nigzcurran

Why would he have used a scraper, and how do you know it was a unger?

jean3009

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119853086#Comment_119853086

He told me in a message, "All the equipment I use is from Unger who is a worldwide reputable brand".

Any product from a reputable brand can cause damage if used in a negligible way.

PGE1970

If your windows specifically state that no blades should be used on them and you didn't tell the window cleaner this, you might have a problem (even if you didn't know this, it might be considered that you should have).

That said, how did he not notice after the first window that damage was being caused?

And, as he states, if he didn't cause the damage (the implication that it was there already?), why didn't he alert you to the damage on the windows before he cleaned them?

Your problem might not be winning in the court, it might be collecting afterwards.

Good luck!

Nigzcurran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119853131#Comment_119853131

So it’s a rubber squeegee type thing you suspect scraped it? Could you get him to show you all the tools he uses and see if you think any of them could have caused it?

jean3009

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119852923#Comment_119852923

The glass has a stamp in the corner of both panes so yes, I'm sure it is toughened glass or something along those lines.

jean3009

No, it's not rubber, it's an actual blade... I'm sure it would take your finger off if not handled correctly. He had the blades in a plastic holder.

lawred2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119854964#Comment_119854964

He cleaned your windows with a knife?

elperello

Small Claims Court only applicable in cases where compensation sought is €2k or less.

https://www.courts.ie/small-claims-procedure

godskitchen

Can you ask the window cleaner why he used a blade?

Something isn't adding up here

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119855972#Comment_119855972

It's not that much of a mystery. Here's a window glass scraper as described by the OP. Very often the first cleaning of a window will need to remove paint splashes, mortar, silicon/mastic and other stuck-on debris, and a blade when used correctly will take this debris off without damaging the glass. But window technology has moved on and sharp blades aren't compatible with the coatings used on newer windows.

https://www.kaiserkraft.ie/accessories/cleaning-accessories/ergotec-glass-scraper/with-carbon-steel-blade/p/M6946232/?infinity=ict2~net~gaw~cmp~16456046063~ag~134131518139~ar~585401672153~kw~~mt~~acr~1235308027&PC=&storefront=current&infinity=ict2~net~gaw~ar~585401672153~kw~~mt~~cmp~16456046063~ag~134131518139&gclid=CjwKCAiAvK2bBhB8EiwAZUbP1JB4uo33jT0IR6sYkb1axxdVExp4Mt87I85-_r8i-gJtjlWnfddlbxoCUsoQAvD_BwE

I suppose it's like when we all moved to telfon frying pans and had to drop the metal utensils.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119853051#Comment_119853051

That's pretty clear from the manufacturer's site. It really puts the ball back into the cleaner's court now.

The photos tell the story pretty well too - it was a bladed tool operating in two arcs - top and bottom of the window. I'll guess that the Unger blade had been dropped on one side, hence the scrapes to the glass.

cruizer101

I can't understand why there is such big scrapes, for one I would only use a blade in specific spot for a specific bit of dirt stuck onto window like a paint spot but also how did he not notice scraping as he was doing it in those long strokes

Deeec

Who was in the house when he cleaned the windows - did they see him use the blade?

Your window does seem badly scratched - Whats baffling me though is why he used the blade all over the window? I would have thought it should only be used on a small area when something hard is stuck to the window. Using a blade all over the window is careless and my opinion window cleaner is responsible ( providing window wasnt in a bad state before cleaning).

whiterebel

About 2 years after we bought our house, we got the windows cleaned on the inside, and the outside the following day. There were terrible scratch marks all over, but in this case the window cleaner pointed it out. He was very upset when I thought it was him, and he showed me his bucket. There was nothing sharp in it that would make scratches like it. Turns out that a lot in the estate had the same problem - it was down to the manufacturers. Wasn't spotted from the start because the windows outside were always dusty seeing as it was an ongoing building site.

godskitchen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119856167#Comment_119856167

Cool the jets. This wasn't a first clean of the glass, as the op said, so again, my question stands. I asked the op if there was any silicone or cement and the answer was no.

As someone who has professionally calened windows in the past I understand how it works.

As such, I can not understand why a window cleaner would ever bring a blade to a window that just needed cleaning. As the op said, he or she had cleaned the glass multiple times before the window cleaner went near the glass.

I would also have serious questions as to why it is just this window that has the scratches. Was the blade used on any other windows and if not why not, if the glass didn't require it...... Just a random thing for a window cleaner to do? For a laugh?

Something not adding up somewhere.

10-10-20

OP, do you have a photo of the hair-type shaving?

Ginger83

It could end up he said she said and even if you win they might have no means to pay.

What about home insurance for accidental damage?

Unsupervised

Looks like it was caused by a damaged squeegee where the rubber wasn’t in correctly and the metal or clip did the damage or debris in the sleeve of an Unger caused it based on the arch motion of the scrapes.

jean3009

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119856362#Comment_119856362

We (my husband and I) both witnessed him using a blade. Let me show you a picture of the window before he "cleaned it".

jean3009

This is one of the many little strands hanging. Can't rotate the picture, the scratches is vertical.

Edit to add that there are scratches on a number of other windows and patio sliding doors but this is by far the worst. The other scratches also have that arch at the top of the scratch - doesnt that show really that it wasnt an odd accidental scratch from a painter or plasterer (althought the windows were protected throughout with a film) but from someone actively "cleaning" the windows.

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119860858#Comment_119860858

The thing that I don't get is: if these strands are still hanging onto the glass, how did he actually clean the windows or did you stop him in the process?

jean3009

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119860869#Comment_119860869

Its baffling to me too........no I didnt stop him, he finished and I paid him and only noticed the scratches the next morning because it was dark shortly after he left (and small kids really monopolise your attention) and we had the blinds down.

Someone made an interesting point here that maybe it was the squeegee and not the blade that did the damage, then the threads hanging would make sense because the squeegee is the last thing to touch the glass??????

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119860918#Comment_119860918

Seemingly so!

kirk.

Of course a sponge or anything can potentially damage glass depending on what's on the surface

What is the best way to clean a window anyhow?

daheff

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119853072#Comment_119853072

can you make a number of submissions (1 per room?) to get around the issue? More costly though.

If your window cleaner is reputable and used by other neighbours and well established, then there might be pause for thought here.

A reputable cleaner with years experience doesn’t want their name tarnished or indeed to be caught up in this situation.

The fact the windows are new, and whilst cleaned previously, were they inspected in proper day light with sunshine? Do the scratches appear in low light or a dull day? It MIGHT be the case these were existing scratches- it happens all the time with new windows delivered

However, You would also imagine that if a window cleaner spotted these scratches he’d bring it to your attention straight away? Otherwise he’s leaving himself open to criticism

It sounds like grit or glass caught up in the brush TBH- a blade, unless damaged at the edge would glide over glass and anyway, why would you use a blade on a whole window that didn’t have obvious heavy surface dirt? You wouldn’t.

So it’s back to, just how reputable is this guy? Does he have his own insurance, charges VAT etc?

If not, then you may have to go the legal route and try and establish some kind of settlement. But a scratch that’s obvious today, May have been there previously but due to window being dirty or low light, wasn’t spotted. If you’re sure that’s not the case, then maybe speaking to a solicitor is the unfortunate next step.

jean3009

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119876763#Comment_119876763

The scratches are deep, if you run a fingernail over it, you will hear it. They are visible all the time and not just low sun.

We suggested going through insurance and he won't provide his insurance details.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119880791#Comment_119880791

OK - really sounds like he caused them, especially as he didn’t mention that he saw them - and how you describe the scratches, you couldn’t miss them.

It’s an extraordinary situation I have to say- I’ve never heard of such damage made in just one clean and on multiple windows, - I clean my own windows so I’m the one responsible for likely making thousands of microscopic scratches on my windows but only if you look very very closely, it’s not obvious and that’s after 20 years - I’d call it normal scratches really that everyone has.

Solicitor advice needed at this stage to see what your options are and what direction you’re prepared to go - it certainly sounds like you have a case that would get serious consideration but a solicitors advice will be important at this stage - best of luck

Just to add- the one piece of evidence he may put forward in his favour is that subsequent windows he cleaned with the same equipment have no marks or scratches -

kirk.

Surely this will be impossible to prove

JoChervil

For me these scratchers don't look like caused by the cleaner. They run parallel. Like in series of twos and threes. If the man cleaned the window with hands they would run in different directions and they wouldn't be so long.

For me it happened in a factory or on the site made by builders. For me it looks like an unprotected window was put flat on a dirty surface and then moved. And the few pieces of sand made this damage.

And if this things are hanging, so it is not a glass damaged. maybe it has an anti-breakage foil on it and this is damaged.

JoChervil

And these pics before and after are not a proof because they are taken in different conditions. The one which show scratches has a sun at the angle, so such lighting shows it perfectly. While without sun they are invisible but it doesn't mean they are not there

And you photographed different parts of the window.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119860858#Comment_119860858

are the threads brittle? i.e. are they made of plastic or glass?

i.e. might they be damage to a plastic coating on the outside of the glass?

jean3009

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119880910#Comment_119880910

There are the same scratches on the other windows but this one seems to be the worst.

jean3009

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119881049#Comment_119881049

It is difficult to get a good picture but in reality they are deep scratches that you couldn't miss. I cleaned the windows a few times and there is no way on this earth that I wouldn't have seen these scratches.

JoChervil

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119881234#Comment_119881234

On the other hand it could have been caused by the cleaner. But not with a scraper. When I look at the second pic, I see you don't have a windowsill there yet. Such surface is very nasty and "scratchy". I once badly hurt my elbow only slightly touching it. So if the window cleaner touched this surface with a squeegee and few pieces of it stuck to the rubber, so it could have caused this damage.

Something in my head is saying is the fancy shmancy window material the issue?

Is there something particular about this window? We’re talking “gashes” here- I’ve made a couple of minor long scratches through the years on one window, likely due to a dirty cloth but nothing like as described and you’d need to look closely to see them - @OP have you googled the make of your window to see if there are any other issues experienced by people who purchased?

Xcellor

Hi OP

I just had a cleaner do my windows and he has destroyed about 10 panes. He hadn't left the housing estate so I called him back and showed him.

He said it was there before hand - we talked it through - he gave me money back for cleaning the windows but I said that isn't going to cover the damage. He said he didn't have insurance. He's a well established tradesman.

In his case he used a blade also (bizarre if you ask me, especially for inside) however I believe it's more likely grit in his cloth did the damage. The picture from the OP isn't as bad as the damage caused to some of my windows.

I phoned my insurance to ask - i was told it was unlikely they would cover as structurally the window is fine.

The cost of replacing is going to be significant. They aren't fancy triple glazing or big windows but still would say over 1000 euro.

I am getting someone to quote for the replacements. Absolute disaster. I will give him the quote and see what he says otherwise it might be small claims court job.

OP any updates on what happened?