Criminal Justice (Incitement to Violence or Hatred and Hate Offences) Bill 2022 - Read OP

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121968446#Comment_121968446

H How do you think they know about any offences they investigate?

concerned_tenant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121969429#Comment_121969429

Similar legislation was passed in Scotland only recently.

As soon as it was passed, JK Rowling was immediately reported to the police. There are innumerable accounts - including from celebrities in the UK - looking forward to Rowling being arrested for her views.

The police investigated and decided against arresting Rowling.

Those same people and celebrities are now expressing outrage that she wasn't arrested.

This was a total waste of time and police resources. The legislation is stupid precisely because it emboldens and animates those who believe their subjective feelings are somehow validation enough to get someone arrested.

Even if people don't get arrested, it nonetheless encourages these same people to report, report, report - wasting already stretched police time and resources. They cannot stop reporting people to the authorities; it's like watching uncontrollable, immature kids who never grew up.

It's embarrassing behaviour, unbecoming of anything approximating an adult.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121969449#Comment_121969449

Gardai regularly have to deal with absolute rubbish, vexatious complaints and non Garda matters. I have no doubt that there will be a massive increase in complaints with respect to this legislation. That is par for the course, unfortunately. I don't see too many complaining about Gardai wasting their time on anything else.

BillyHasMates

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121967943#Comment_121967943

Gardai are currently vastly under resourced and are struggling as it is to deal with and investigate road traffic matters, sexual crimes, burglaries, domestics, frauds (incidents of which have increased massively over the last few years), drug offences and have a presence to combat increasing anti social behaviour and at protests. How do you expect the force as it currently stands to investigate each and every complaint made under this legislation without it impacting other areas? It's quite clear the Minister for Justice and Commissioner have shown little will to rectify the resource issue and even if they did it is going to take years to rectify.

There is no doubt in my mind that this legislation will be abused. Regardless of how many go to prosecution, a certain amount of work will have to be done on each of them. It might not be as impactful on society in general based on the number of people prosecuted, but it will on the Garda force based on how many complaints they will have to investigate. The timing of this legislation couldn't have come at a worse time with a police force and justice sector on its knees.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121969524#Comment_121969524

How do I expect then to investigate every crime reported? I have no doubt there are crimes being left on the long finger regularly.

I agree that Gardai are under resourced and over worked, and as I said they regularly receive vexatious and rubbish reports, there is nothing new there. AGS have a well known retention and recruitment issue.

I don't see or hear too many people trying to defend Gardai usually.

None of which should have anything to do with a state introducing or updating legislation.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121968009#Comment_121968009

Writing it down in the jotter could constitute the amount of investigation afforded to one reported crime versus sending a squad car straight out might be the response to another.

thomas 123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121969440#Comment_121969440

yes but an assault is defined, a murder is defined, speeding is defined. If I call the gardai now and say I’ve been assaulted and they come out and it turns out I have not been assaulted that’s the end of the investigation. They can’t make a similar call when “investigating” a hate crime as there is no definitions to go by and according to government it’s up to the judge to decide - so in theory I can claim to be the victim of a hate crime and the cops can’t say I wasn’t(since it’s up to a judge to decide)

concerned_tenant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121969483#Comment_121969483

Gardai do have to deal with absolute rubbish, I agree - so perhaps we shouldn't add to the problem with this legislation.

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121969483#Comment_121969483

What, to you, will be the benefit of this legislation being introduced, in a perfect world?

I keep hearing folks arguing against it for X,Y,Z reason but there's not actually much chat about what it will achieve that cannot already be achieved by currently legislation.

BillyHasMates

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121969550#Comment_121969550

Sure it has nothing to do with it if you intend on narrowing the issue down to " do we need this legislation, yes or no?" I think there is much more to be considered when it is legislation that citizens, some media and an increasing number of politicians are starting to question, and we have a justice sector and police force that this government and commissioner are failing both the public and Guards themselves with.

kowloonkev

I think it is not that easy to report a crime. It's not like writing a message on twitter. You have to give your real name and can be prosecuted for wasting police time, especially if you are repeatedly reporting the same crime without evidence.

thomas 123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121970231#Comment_121970231

Doesn’t change the fact the gardai can’t determine if a crime has been committed or not since it’s up to a judge and therefore id imagine a reporter can’t be held accountable technically since they can’t guess the outcome of what a Judge will rule.

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121969429#Comment_121969429

Did I say that they were? You like to introduce these little snippets to avoid actually engaging in any form of discourse.

I suppose we are lucky then that it looks like this legislation will die on the vine. Gardai can focus on actual crimes.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121970304#Comment_121970304

Gardai take reports of crimes. They investigate and if there's enough evidence it goes to court. The courts decide if someone is guilty or not of a crime.

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121969483#Comment_121969483

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/dublin/2024/04/03/not-enough-gardai-to-police-dublin-streets-citys-most-senior-official-claims/

Great argument there…yes, heavy use of logic.

"Garda already have to deal with rubbish, so lets have them deal with more rubbish, cause that is their job", If you don't see too many Gardai complaining, you must have bad hearing, or you are just being ignorant.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121970504#Comment_121970504

Not the point. There is no definition to the crime so the Garda cannot say for sure if a law is broken. Only the Judge can decide so if an arrest is made how do you know if its legal?

concerned_tenant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121970504#Comment_121970504

In the UK example, do you think it was a valid use of police time to investigate Rowling's tweets?

I'm crystal clear: it was an utterly stupid waste of police time.

Because if your answer to that question is yes, then you would presumably support anyone reporting Tweets to the Gardai on the same kind of "hate" basis off the back of this legislation.

suvigirl

To me? Hopefully nothing at all. But there is plenty of laws that don't benefit me.

Usually laws are introduced to Benefit society as a whole.

Most legislation needs updating as society changes. I'm not particularly personally invested in whether it comes in or not. I don't agree with the sentencing part of it.

I do know that if someone calls for violence against any of the groups mentioned then there is nothing worth talking about that the law can do about it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121970104#Comment_121970104

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121970579#Comment_121970579

You are completely contradicting yourself with the opening two sentences. You are part of society, so if a law doesn't benefit you, but it benefits society…and you are part of that society…are you following me here?

You say you are not invested in it…but here you are advocating for this new legislation (you haven't been able to define hate yet, and you speak on behalf of people by saying that they won't report anyone).

I think we are finally getting to the bottom of it folks, they are just thinking about themselves.

concerned_tenant

Andrew Neil hitting the nail on the head, again.

https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1775476873172062230

thomas 123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121970579#Comment_121970579

Fair play to you for engaging, it is helping paint a picture for me.

I do think the brakes absolutely need to be stopped on this until the consequences are clarified.

BillyHasMates

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121970568#Comment_121970568

This is a good point. The Guards will ultimately have to make a decision on whether a suspect is arrested and questioned on receipt of a complaint and / or if a search is to be carried out under warrant. If it is not up to them to decide whether an offence under the legislation has been committed as there is no clear definition then how can they make the decision to arrest / search and be confident that it's legal? If it turns out that person is not prosecuted it still impacts their lives. An arrest or even being recorded as a suspect in a case can have consequences if that person is looking for a cert of character from the Guards or applying for a firearm licence for example. Not to mention the experience of being arrested or having your premises searched. For me if the legislation is to come in at some time then it needs to be made much clearer. Coming out with "it will be up to the judiciary to decide" is clearly not good enough.

Astartes

Kind of hope it passes here so we can have some of the same craic the Scots are having.

thomas 123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121970728#Comment_121970728

all fun and games until speaking up against politicians becomes a hate crime, sure if you protest anything at present you’re the far right according to the person mad to bring this law in.

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121970809#Comment_121970809

Or if someone doesn't like a joke they hear at a comedy show, they could report that. Or speaking out against a certain religion…a political party…all of this could be perceived as a form of "hate" to the soft minded in society, or the mean spirited.

Augme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121970809#Comment_121970809

Since when is being a politicians a protected characteristic?

tarvis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121969449#Comment_121969449

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121969449#Comment_121969449

is our govt seriously asking many of us to agree to something we believe to be an untruth in the name of kindness and inclusion.

Is our govt asking many of us to deny biology, the findings of generations of experts and the evidence of our eyes in the maternity ward.

Is our govt now proposing that for some of us to say that men are men and women are women and that transmen are transmen and trans women are transwomen is now to become a hate / thought /speech crime?

Is our govt ditching ‘living and letting live’ in favour of asking asking women - and its mainly women’s facilities and sports that are being targeted - to shove over in their hard earned women only changing rooms, refuges, prisons and sports.

A law to allow people to just declare themselves to be the opposite sex and demand changes to custom, practice and language to facilitate their choices got past our dozy Dail some years ago . The current ‘hate’ bill under discussion is now required to finish the job that was started with that unlimited by our authorities change - it is required to push through the will of a minority of a minority against the wishes and rights of the majority and to give sweeping powers to what is an untruth - a non fact.

In time the truth will out but how many decent and innocent people will be accused of homophobia and transphobia in the interim?
JK Rowling and Graham Linehan are neither.

Quantum Erasure

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121968357#Comment_121968357

Haven't seen much mention of the "Offence of preparing or possessing material likely to incite violence or hatred ..."

What if I have a hard drive full of offensive memes downloaded from 4chan or wherever, should I be investigated and charged?

thomas 123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121970944#Comment_121970944

can you share an up to date list of “protected characteristics”? Idelaly one a citizen of Ireland can refer to to ensure their not committing hate crime or in possession of potentially hateful material.

Augme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121971185#Comment_121971185

They are listed in the Bill. Last time I checked it, being a politicians wasn't included. Has that changed?